After IV
Grad School and Beyond: Navigating Faith and Academia
 
Podcast Intro – (Upbeat acoustic guitar music)

Jon Steele  0:09  
Hey everyone. I'm Jon Steele. And this is After IV: a podcast for InterVarsity alumni. Life after college is hard. And even a great experience with your University chapter doesn't shield you from the challenges of transition. As we hear stories from real alumni learning how to make it in their post-InterVarsity reality, my hope is that this podcast will offer some encouragement, a few laughs and even some hope for the future. This is After IV, and these are your stories.

Welcome

Hello, hello. Welcome to After IV, the podcast for InterVarsity alumni. I'm your host, Jon Steele. Great to be together. As always, if it's your first time joining us, welcome! I'm so glad you made it. And whether you're brand new, or have been listening to every episode since the beginning, if you haven't done it yet, would you take just a second to hit the subscribe button on the podcast platform that you're using today? I would greatly appreciate that. Hey, let's jump into today's episode. If you're in grad school, starting grad school in the fall or know someone who is then this conversation is going to feel especially relevant when I started grad school, it did not take long for my biggest concerns to become where am I going to make friends and how am I going to keep growing in my relationship with Jesus as if entering a new program wasn't disorienting enough on its own. I was also majorly missing my undergrad community and I felt totally disconnected from any form of discipleship. Thankfully, I was introduced to InterVarsity a few weeks into the semester. And even though it took me a while to actually commit once I finally did, it kicked off a fantastic season of friendship and discipleship that I'm still benefiting from today. As you all know, from your own experiences. Now the difference between my story and the direction that we're going with this episode is that I was a grad student in an undergrad chapter. Today, we're talking to Hon who works with ena varsities grad and faculty ministry at Columbia University. Now, as you can probably assume from the title, Hon specializes in ministry to grad students, and he's going to help us start to get a lay of the land for what that looks like and what grad students can expect from being involved with a graduate Christian fellowship with InterVarsity. It's not just a copy paste of your undergrad experience. It's a contextualized ministry. And it's designed to help you flourish as a grad student, pursue your primary calling of love for God and others while you develop an even more robust vision for the intersection of faith and your area of study. Here's Hon, and this one's for you, alumni. 

Musical Interlude

Interview

Jon Steele
Hon welcome to the podcast.

Hon Eng  2:46  
Yeah, thanks for the invitation.

Jon Steele  2:48  
And before we jump in too far here, just give us an introduction. Tell us a little bit about who you are sure,

Hon Eng  2:53  
I live in work in New York City with graduate faculty ministries, or G F m, every department of InterVarsity has a set of acronyms, and jargon. I'm at Columbia University, working primarily with graduate students, and I dabble with faculty, I grew up on Manhattan Island, a lot of people don't as island but is literally an island, I may be the only staff or one of the few in the whole country that does not have a driver's license. And my goal is before I turn 70 years old, I'll get my license. Okay.

Jon Steele  3:30  
Just to say you did very nice. Well, so we're gonna talk a lot about grad ministry, what it looks like to step into grad school, the spiritual needs of someone who's moving into this time of their life or who was who's already there. And you know, we've had a few different conversations with people who are either in grad school presently, as a student, or who were in grad school and kind of looking back, we'll tag a few of those episodes in the show notes. But we have yet to sit down with somebody who professionally does grad ministry. So I'm excited for us to get to talk today about some of these things. Tell us just kind of broadly, what is grad and faculty ministry about and how long have you been doing it?

Hon Eng  4:11  
I started 34 years ago within a velocity staff serving undergraduates for 12 years and then in $2, and to transition to gfM. working primarily with grad students. So I've been working with grad students for over two decades now. I'm also a grad student, I call myself a perennial master's student in my 20s I did a master divinity in my 40s I did a master New Testament and now my 60s, I'm going to do a master in Old Testament. Wow, that's amazing. Yeah, friends have been asking me why am I doing a third master and I tell them that Jesus said, You shall not have two masters. That's a grad student. chilka. That's amazing. But But that's certainly I'm starting a A part time Master's, the Old Testament, I'll continue working full time with Jeff, I mean, not be a typical grad student in my 60s, it covers a wider range than undergrad in my context of doing primarily residential, traditional college ministry. You know, college students I work were primarily 18 to 22, single lived on campus or new to campus was grad students could be in the early 20s. And going into the 30s. Some are married. And if you do have children already, many of them are commuting or traveling a good distance to the university. So grad students lives are just more complicated and diverse.

Jon Steele  5:46  
How does you think about your experience these last couple of decades, you've gotten to watch a lot of students step into grad programs, I imagine that a number of them probably not all, but a number of them are people that have come from an undergrad InterVarsity chapter into a grad program. Maybe I'm wrong in my assumption there. But as you've watched these things, what are some of the frequent challenges that you noticed that students encounter as they transition from an undergrad InterVarsity chapter into their grad program experiences?

Hon Eng  6:19  
Yeah, I would say that the expectations would be different. Although would college students graduating and been actively involved with a InterVarsity chapter, sometimes when they go to grad school, and they know that there's a NYC grad fellowship or fellowships at the new university, they have a fear that it may be the same as undergrad, meaning there are a lot a lot of time and mentalis sort of did that on that. What I will say to you last year, alumni going to grad school was fear not. As Jesus was say, it won't be a repeat of your undergrad experience. And it will be different. It may not even be InterVarsity chapter in wasI, the National Movement has a partnership with several national movements like the Christian legal society that serve law students or the Christian icon, Dental Association, CMDA, that's or healthcare students. So when IV alum go to grad school, they may find InterVarsity grad chapter, they may find, CLS CMDA, or some other church ministry.

Jon Steele  7:38  
It sounds like one of the concerns for the adjustments that needs to be made is around the idea of contextualized ministry that this isn't just a copy, paste, that it is, you know, for everything that was fantastic about your undergrad ministry experience with InterVarsity. Like, that's great, no devaluing of that experience whatsoever, but that you need something different in grad school, and that gfM is there to provide a different and contextualized experience or another ministry that is even more specialized into particular programs that partners with InterVarsity.

Hon Eng  8:13  
Yeah, yeah, I mean, we probably do more in the component integration of faith and work, you know, undergrad ministry, a lot of the programming focus on outreach in terms of addressing social justice issues, or doing, you know, evangelism, whereas Dutch part of the grant ministry, but probably a bigger pipe, is the indication of faith in work. Like, we don't often invite pastors or university staff members to speak at our chapter events or conference. Because you know, they can always go and listen to the pastor, every Sunday sharing sermon, we tend to invite people in the marketplace, professors, people, various professors. I mean, obviously, for the health care fellowship, we invite doctors and nurses and public health officials, that type of thing, which makes sense for them. And they want to have opportunity to see someone who's 510 20 years down down the line who've been faithful and following Jesus in their particular profession.

Jon Steele  9:24  
I mean, that makes sense. And it seems like somebody in that stage would want to double down on how do I actually live out my faith practically, in this next stage of life, like I am very committed to this field, or else I wouldn't be here in this program. So how do I do this? Well, so it sounds like gfM sort of understands that of, hey, when we bring somebody in to speak at our events, or our conferences or things like that, we want it to be somebody who can speak in a very specific and relevant way to what it looks like to this combination of faith and profession, I would imagine even for just having credibility. In the things that you're sharing, that's very helpful. Hon as you as you think about adjustments, it feels like the big pillars of an undergrad ministry experience are things like discipleship and community engagements. You mentioned evangelism as well. But these are some of the big things that stand out. What adjustments? does somebody need to make around some of those things as they step into their grad programs? Are people's spiritual needs or their access to resources to fulfill those needs? Are they different in important ways as they step into these programs?

Hon Eng  10:37  
Yeah, I mean, I think sometimes incoming Christian grad students may not necessarily recognize some of these spiritual, theological things that would be helpful for them to know. For example, I'll give you like the concept of calling. Usually when I hear grad students talking about calling, they're really talking about career like what kind of career job guys calling them to where they should move to after graduation, or, you know, that big question to marry or not to marry, right. And so those are definitely callings and important ones. But I share with students that I see them as secondary callings. And there's actually a primary call because most of human history, people didn't have a choice of like, what kind of jobs they won't do, what their parents did by and in terms of where to live, majority of humanity have lived like within 20 miles of where they were born, and much of human history, wow, we have a lot of privileges now and opportunities that did not exist. So the primary calling, I think can be illustrated in First Corinthians chapter one, verse nine, where we're called to be in fellowship with Jesus. You know, the word fellowship in Greek is called a near word Koinonia, is also mentioned in First Corinthians 10, verse 16, to participate in the body of Christ or corner Nia with the body of Christ. They see that as the primary calling to love God and love his people. And that calling has been available to believers throughout church history. I find it fascinating that in First Corinthians seven, which is a very long chapter that begins with singleness and marriage, as a lot of material about singleness and marriage, and right smack in the middle of that chapter. In verses 17 to 24. You have the Greek word collateral, which is translated Kol and is used nine times. That passage has the most usage of the word call of any passage in a New Testament. People take note of that passage, because in that passage, Paul began an N word, singleness and marital status in terms of being single or married. And then he talks about circumcision and circumcision, you're talking about Jews and Gentile, ethnicity, he talks about leaving free, so you're talking about socio economic category. And repeatedly in that short passage, Paul keeps hammering the point, remain where you are, where your core, your core is not against changing one's circumstances or upward mobility, because he says very clearly, the slaves if you're able to gain your freedom, do it. But that's not the primary goal. The primary goal is to love God to sanctify your life and your situation, whatever season wherever you are, and fulfill the primary calling of a loving Jesus and loving you know, his people.

Jon Steele  13:51  
So when you are transitioning from this undergrad experience, to a grad experience, maybe your access to some of these things is going to feel different the availability of having frequent time spent in community or you know, the way that ministry is conducted, it's going to feel different. But that does not change your primary calling, which is to love God and to love God's people, the people around you. I mean, that's comforting to know that as far as the spiritual needs that are there, that they're really the same. The things that you are in pursuit of are the same, that it's just going to look a little bit different the way that you apply the things that you've learned in the past for what it looks like to pursue Jesus and to love other people. It's the same thing. It's just gonna look a little different.

Hon Eng  14:39  
Yeah, yeah. And it's important to begin grad school, knowing that you have a beloved child God, and call to his beloved community, whatever you're studying, and whatever career you're pursuing. And here's another Greek word that's worth learning. I mean, most Christians know the word agape means God's unconditional love. Yeah, well is a adjective formed as used very frequently. But you may not know that because it's translated many different ways like dear friends, beloved loved ones hot but the word is a gap a toss. So you can hear a gap Bay, and just add extra syllable to S and makes it into agitated Beloved. Ah, so I tell students if you're in a special relationship and your tire using certain terms, like honey and Sweetie, you can call your partner a guppy toss. You know my little Greek word because it's used very often in the New Testament, but we don't see it. We're constantly being called agape toss. And one of the places is Jesus baptism in Luke chapter three, verse 22, God, the Father says, You are My beloved Son, my agape toss in who I am, please. That's huge, I think, for grad students, because grad school is gonna be super rough. And especially doctoral students, if they've been in grad school for three, four or five years. Sometimes they wonder, why am I doing what am I doing? And they need to remember that God's a copy, toss, beloved, and called to be in His Beloved Community, and faithful with the gifts and talents that God is giving them.

Jon Steele  16:24  
Yeah, because in the midst of that, not only is that primary calling happening, but also that secondary calling of God is redeeming the circumstances that they are in and preparing them for next stages of life as they pursue that secondary calling the thing that could stay the same as what they're studying, it could change. I'm somebody who's not doing what I went to grad school for. But that primary calling stayed the same, loving God and loving his people. But what does it look like to see my surroundings redeemed, you know, in the moment, and in the future of what I'm pursuing? So hon, we've talked about some of these transitions, some of these needs that are the same, but some that also kind of fluctuate and change over time. But let's circle back to gfM. In particular, how does a grad fellowship help people deal with these challenges, and acclimate to new faith to community to New Life rhythms? You know, grad fellowships exist for a reason? What are some of the ways that it helps people work through this season of their life?

Hon Eng  17:27  
Yeah, I mean, it's a common experience those harder to develop friendships, as a grad student, the undergrad, you know, undergrad, you get this whole week orientation parties and meeting all kinds of people. And you can hang out in dorms like the night and get a chance to spend a lot of time with other students your age, but with grad students, since, you know, there's usually find that one of the few Christians in their cohort, or the department, or even the school within the university, they will meet other spiritual siblings at our grad fellowship, they walk me into classes and departments. And so that's huge, having that opportunity. Like I have a PhD student in computer science, and she's very relational and express. And it drives me crazy that she's a department we're all men who are socially awkward, like that's. So she finds, you know, intimacy and friendship with other members of the GCF package and fellowship. That's common. Other students will have the same experience, just know a lot of believers in their program.

Jon Steele  18:42  
That's, that's really interesting. Because you know, undergrad, you've got your small group, you've got your large group, you've got your prayer meetings, you've got your different conferences, you've got like all of these different opportunities that if you miss one or two, there's another one just coming right around the corner. And it sounds to me like when it comes to grad and faculty ministry, when it comes to your grad experience that you've got this kind of one a week, and it just makes it that much more rich and makes it that much more important that it is this almost I don't know if this is the right word, but it's the one I'm going to use. It's almost like this denser experience that you get in this one gathering. Because time is just so different. And it just makes it sound like because of those realities, but that your need is still the same part of your primary calling is still to love God's people. Okay, then this space is just so vital because there's far fewer of them that are available in your you are far less available to find them. So prioritize this because it's going to help with the things that you need in this time.

Hon Eng  19:48  
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Because there's a lot of anxiety and the COVID-19 just made it worse. Dudes are feeling about the future. And you know, it helps that others are also recognizing the uncertainties and difficulties. And they understand the situation. There's a book that came out last month that I've been recommending to students. It's titled anxiety opportunity when by Curtis Chang, who is an IV alumnus and former InterVarsity, staff worker at Harvard, I've been finding his book really, really encouraging and helpful. Curtis, does that familiar verse, Be not anxious in Philippians chapter four, verse six, the most believers are familiar with, but they often don't look at the context. At the end of chapter three, verse 21, the apostle Paul talks about our lowly bodies being transformed into a glorious body. That's the resurrection. And that is the context of the exaltation be not anxious. So Curtis says that, the encouragement of that passage is that we get back what we lost, because anxiety is this fear that we're going to lose things, we lose our job, our health, or relationships. And the reality is that during the course of a lifetime, we will all lose things. And the ultimate loss is our life, right? And so it will happen, we will lose things. But the great thing good news of the Bible is that we get back what we have lost in the resurrection, we get back our body, our loved ones, a new world. And that should be a tremendous encouragement to any grad students in the trenches struggling with fighting. I give the analogy of D day and the day, a couple of weeks ago, we celebrated the Sunday night anniversary of D Day, which was June 6 1944. And the Allied Forces knew that if D Day was successful, it was only a matter of time that they were toppled the Nazi regime, they were marched to Berlin, and victory was in sight. And the Victory in Europe occurred about a year later, I think, May 9 1945. But in between, there was a major battles and lots of people die. And so I share with students that there is a spiritual D Day and the spiritual VE Day, the spiritual D days, Jesus incarnation, death and resurrection, ascension and pulling out the spirit that happened 2000 years ago, the days victory on earth, when Jesus returns, we are ready to rock the glorious parties. And there's a new heaven, New Earth, that we live in this what theologians call, you're ready, but not yet. So it's not unusual that grad students are suffering or we're all suffering in some way or another and you know, enrollments, eight, the apostle Paul says groaning before glory, and I tell grad students as groaning before graduation.

Jon Steele  23:09  
Man, that's fantastic. It sounds to me like being a part of a grad ministry helps you maintain your focus helps continue to clarify for you, why you're doing what you're doing, why it is meaningful, not only for your own accomplishment, but for the world. And also to keep your eyes pointing forward, graduation will be a great victory. But then also, you are training grad students to keep looking even further ahead for this victory on earth that you talked about. And it's all part of maintaining this perspective of, you know, your life is not all about your program that is important, but that it's not just about that it is also about human flourishing, it is about you continuing to grow in love for God and His people. And what does it look like to maintain appropriate perspective of the work that you're doing and its importance, but also the bigger picture that it fits into? So if you had the ear of somebody who was about to step into a new program, or who is about to step back into their program, what would be one final piece of advice that you would give to someone?

Hon Eng  24:20  
Yeah, final word that I would share is that most Christians are familiar with the story of in Matthew 25. is a story about being given commendation and affirmation, which is a well done good and faithful servant, right? Yes, we all want to hear that from from Jesus. And that's a very familiar story, but there's an opposite counterpart to that, and most Christians are not familiar. Most maybe I've heard King Solomon and knew that he was considered the wisest man of his generation or a wonder wises in all of human history, but for such as we Why is a smart man he did some stupid things.

Jon Steele  25:04  
It's so true.

Hon Eng  25:04  
Well, what's amazing is again of his life in First Kings 11. Let me just read the verse to you. The Lord became angry with Solomon because his heart had turned away from the Lord, the God of Israel who appeared to him twice. Like that's pretty scathing rebuke. Most of us have never had an epiphany or appearance of the Lord once, right, but sound language, the privilege of two appearances of the Lord. And, you know, fortunately, Solomon's final performance review was not good. And so you know, as grad students, we want to hear Jesus say to us, good and faithful servant.

Jon Steele  25:46  
Absolutely. That is our longing for sure. We want to hear well done good and faithful servant. So what does it look like for us to continue onward, to remain faithful in our program, and outside of it, and to hear at various important moments of graduation and beyond? Well done. Hon, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for sharing not only the ins and outs of grad ministry, but even to me what feels like giving us a taste of what it's like to actually be a part of it, it feels to me some of the things that you share just almost gave us a front row seat to some of what it's like just to be involved with grad ministry. And I'm really grateful for your investment and for taking some time to prepare something like this for our young alumni who are stepping into the world of grad school.

Hon Eng  26:36  
Yeah, I wish I heard this when I was a young grad student at 85.

Jon Steele  26:43  
Absolutely. 

Musical Interlude

Wrap up

Jon Steele
Alumni hope that this is an encouragement to you as you step into, or continue on in grad school, whether that's master's work, a PhD, med school, law school or any other program beyond your bachelor's degree. It's a challenging season of life. In so many ways, your time is not your own. And you often need to have an almost singular focus your program your discipline, I am so grateful that InterVarsity has a contextualized ministry that understands that reality and wants to walk with you as you navigate it. And I know full well that an invitation to check something out has the potential to induce anxiety and make you say I can't handle another thing. So this is what I want to encourage you to do. There's a link to the gfM website and the Emerging Scholars network in the show notes. unlock your phone, click one of those links beneath the episode description and learn more about what gfM has to offer. You can continue to get a feel for how they want to encourage you in your program your overall discipline and as a disciple of Jesus, and there's even a find a community button that you can click if you'd like to see what might be available on or near your campus. Also, if you'd like to hear more stories about alumni like you who have navigated a grad level context, you can find links to those episodes in the show notes. And if this episode has been particularly helpful, or if you've had an awesome grad ministry experience with InterVarsity yourself, please hit us up on Instagram @afterivpod. We want to hear all about it. And let me just say you should also stay tuned for a future bonus episode with Hon he's going to provide encouragement for grad students who were experiencing fatigue as they progress through the later parts of their program. I'll quote Hon’s final words from that brief conversation and he says don't be a Bozo be a Sozo. So if you'd like to know what the heck that means, then keep your eyes open for Hon’s short bonus episode. It should be dropping sometime in September. Hon, thank you so much for your ministry to grad students. Thank you for joining us this week for providing this invaluable insight into InterVarsity grad and faculty ministry and for helping grad students know what they can expect being a part of it and blessings as you start up that master's degree number three. All right, that's it for now. I will see you all again next week for our chat with Kate a recent James Madison University alumna who has a unique gap year experience between undergrad and grad school and she thinks you all should consider a similar experience. Come back next time to hear all about her nine month program with the fellows initiative in Greensboro, North Carolina. Thanks for tuning in. And I will see you in the after, Alumni.

Podcast Outro – (Upbeat acoustic guitar music)

Hey, thanks so much for joining us today, Alumni. If there was anything that you learned, really enjoyed, or that encouraged you from today's episode, would you send us a DM or tag us in a story? We'd love to hear about it. You can find us @afterivpod on Instagram and Facebook. And if you haven't already, take just a second to unlock your phone and subscribe to the podcast. If your platform lets you, leave us a rating and a review. And if you like what we're doing here, share us with your InterVarsity or other post-graduation friends. Thanks again for listening. And I will see you in the after, Alumni.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai