After IV
A Companion for Transition
 
Podcast Intro – (Upbeat acoustic guitar music)

Jon Steele  0:09  
Hey everyone. I'm Jon Steele. And this is After IV: a podcast for InterVarsity alumni. Life after college is hard. And even a great experience with your University chapter doesn't shield you from the challenges of transition. As we hear stories from real alumni learning how to make it in their post-InterVarsity reality, my hope is that this podcast will offer some encouragement, a few laughs and even some hope for the future. This is After IV, and these are your stories.

Welcome

Hey, friends, welcome to After IV: the podcast for InterVarsity alumni. I'm your host, Jon Steele. If you're joining us for the first time, so glad you made it. We're just a couple of weeks from wrapping up our post graduation series finding your footing. For the last few weeks we've been talking about useful skills for life after graduation, things like living with new roommates identifying a healthy church using InterVarsity experience as a resume booster and a lot of other things. In addition to that. Today we're talking with author Katie schnack about her book, The Gap decade when you're technically an adult, but really don't feel like it yet. This book is a fantastic companion piece to the post graduation transition. It's packed with thoughtful stories about Katie's own transitions around school, work relationships, and even more than that, they're totally relatable. And Katie's writing, style and sense of humor makes even the most difficult topics feel accessible. And today we're going to hear some of Katie's learning from her own gap decade experiences. I'm going to let Katie tell those stories, though. So let's get things started. Here's Katie. And this one's for you alumni. 
Musical Interlude

Interview

Jon Steele
Well, Katie, welcome to the podcast.

Katie Schnack  1:51  
Thank you. I'm happy to be here.

Jon Steele  1:53  
Yes, I'm so glad that we get to chat these last few episodes, we've been talking a lot about the idea of transition your book, the way that it's formatted. It feels like a friend that could just go with you into this time of transition. And so I'm really excited to get to talk to you about those things. But before we do that, Katie, help us get to know you. Who are you?

Katie Schnack  2:13  
Yeah, that's a great question. Who are we all right? My name is Katie Schnack, I'm a writer. I'm also a book publicist by trade, my day job, but my passion is writing. I'm married. I have two kids. I live on a hobby farm in South Florida, where my animals have no other purpose except for me to hug them. And that's so like, literally, I don't… Well, I do eat the eggs. But yeah, so South Florida hobby farm writing books. That's my life.

Jon Steele  2:43  
That's awesome. Now, hobby farm is not something that I think very often when people talk about Florida, is that a very common thing?

Katie Schnack  2:49  
No. So, like, one day, me and my husband drove a little bit inland. And we got in this neighborhood. We're like, wait a minute, like, we're like 20 minutes from the beach. But this is farmland. And so ever since then, we're like, we must live there. And then we did and then we bought all the animals.

Jon Steele  3:04  
That's awesome. Now Katie, one thing that I have not ever known going into a conversation beforehand is that a guest is a fellow fan of the office. My understanding is that you are a big fan of the office. And so we must take a moment to talk about the office. It's impossible to narrow down you know, your most favorite moment. But please tell me of the you know, the nine the nine seasons that I hear, you've binged a number of times, what is one of the standout moments for you from the office?

Katie Schnack  3:34  
You know, I think a moment that I just most relate to is when Kevin drops the pot of chili. Oh my gosh, yes. Because are we not all just a Kevin with a giant pot of chili trying to do our best, but then probably falling flat on our face in the middle of a lot of people.

Jon Steele  3:53  
That is such a great picture of life. Just we're just trying to scoop that chili back into the pot and salvage as much of it as we can. As I was thinking about this question myself. I think it's the product recall it starts off with Jim coming in pretending to be Dwight as the cold open. But then it ends with Dwight coming in pretending to be Jim. I don't know that there's any moment there. Certainly up to that point had not been any moment that I had rewound and watched again and again and again and laughed so hard than Dwight pretending to be Jim just absolutely nailed it. Well, that's, that's lovely. It's always nice to get to chat about the office with a fellow fan. But let's talk about your book. You have this book called The Gap decade. It's been out for a while. I'm a little late to the show. So forgive me, but here we are. Katie, can you just tell us what is the concept of the gap decade in general? And how is it that your book works to address this concept?

Katie Schnack  4:49  
Yeah, so the reason I wanted to write the gap decade was I felt like after graduation from college, I was just thrown into the world, expected to fail. unction as an adult, without really knowing how, and it wasn't just that I felt that way, but it so many other people felt that way. And for a long time to like even into your 20s. And, you know, kind of were trying to like bumbling through and figuring out and I was like, I know that I'm not the only one feeling this way. So I just wanted to be like the voice to be like, Hey, I think this is normal, like, hey, this happened to me, maybe it happened to you, too. So it's called the gap decade when you're technically an adult, but really don't feel like it yet. And it's kind of shares my stories from college graduation through basically having my first child and just kind of all the crazy things that happen. There's a lot of talk about transitions like moving me and my husband, I think we lived in like five states in like five years and a million apartments and just a lot of moving jobs stuff, trying to have start a family. Just kind of all those things that kind of happened into your 20s in your 30s.

Jon Steele  5:54  
Even just that tag of when you're technically an adult, but you don't feel like it. You know, there's so many firsts that you come across in those even just the first couple of years, but that first decade of experiences that you're like, I mean, I know that people do this. I've heard of this before, but I've never done it. And if you're lucky enough to have a parent that you can call up and like ask for help through that. That's great. But not everybody has that. And so those can be really shocking experiences when you're like, Oh, I didn't realize I was gonna have to deal with this now.

Katie Schnack  6:26  
Yeah, it's real life stress, right? Like, even if it's like trying to find like a new place to live, we're trying to like get a job and realizing that you're super poor. And it's really like things that six months ago, I was in a dorm with my friends, you know what I mean? Like? So it's definitely a big growth decade for a lot of people. And so I just, I don't want to just talk about it a little bit.

Jon Steele  6:47  
So let's talk about it. Then. One of the themes that I don't know that you necessarily overtly talk about this all the time in these stories, but it seems to me that one of the themes is waiting that runs through so many of the stories that you tell through your book. So in general, what have you learned about waiting while in your own gap decade?

Katie Schnack  7:07  
That's a really good question. And I think waiting is something that it doesn't matter what decade you're in, you're always gonna go through seasons of waiting. Yes. And I hate waiting. Like, I'm a very impatient person, like, I think I do have, I think I have a whole intro where I talked about waiting. And I'm like, even if it's like waiting for my coffee to finish, I'm like, like, I'm very impatient. I think that what I have learned is that it isn't something we can control. Obviously, it is something that we can trust God with, we can be like, Okay, I want to be 20 steps ahead of where I am right now. But I'm not. And I'm waiting to get to that point. And just trusting the timing of that. I think it's I don't know, just finding peace with that, right? Because like, it's not going to always be easy. It's definitely something seeds in the waiting or something that stretches you and that grows you. In a way, even if you don't want to be grown at that moment, I don't know, I think what I've learned is that you're always going to come through seasons of waiting, you can trust God with the timing, whatever that looks like. And also to like, I think, especially as I've gotten older and been through, I think like first couple really big seasons or anything, like let's say you just had to college, you're like, like, for example, I graduated college in 2008. I couldn't find a job for a very long time, because it was the recession. That was like a very big, hard lesson of waiting. And oftentimes I look back at those times. And I like when I'm in seasons of waiting now. And I can be like, Okay, God brought me through, then. He's gonna bring me through now. Yes. So my job in the meantime, is to trust that and try to find a little bit of joy and peace, because life isn't always going to just be laid out in a way that all the steps are lined up in the way that you choose. So just finding joy and peace when the things are in a little bit of a waiting season, I think is is really important.

Jon Steele  8:51  
Yeah, there's a spiritual discipline that goes on in the midst of waiting. What does it look like to be able to just to slow yourself down and say, God's timing is not my own? Yeah. And what does it look like for me to lean into trusting God's timing, which is, you know, that it sounds sort of almost cliche or whatever. But like, there's a reason that people say it all the time, because because in this case, it is actually true. What does it look like for us to pause and wait on the Lord's timing and trust him and I have a psychology background and one of the things we talk about in psychology is even just this idea of acceptance, you know, what does it look like to just look at the experiences around you the circumstances around you and to say, this just is how it is right now. Right? And that there is some amount of just relief that can come from saying, this is it this is my reality. It's not what I want, but okay, I'm not gonna fight against it. I'm gonna wait. And when it's time to go, I'm ready to go.

Katie Schnack  9:43  
Yeah, because there's so much energy that you can spend trying to fight against it. Like there's so many times but I've tried to open a million doors on my own right, like, I've tried to do so much to change the way things are, but nothing works. And then all sudden, one day, like God opens the door and you're like, oh, Yeah, and so like, I think just looking back and seeing that happened time, and again, it's something that I can kind of take into my life now that like, I know that God was there for me, and his timing was so perfect. And I can see now why that timing was perfect. And if that happened, then it's gonna happen again now. So I just kind of take that with me into life moving forward.

Jon Steele  10:18  
I think running parallel to waiting, it seems like, there are times that we actively Wait, like waiting can feel like a very passive thing that's just like, Okay, I'm just gonna be here and stuffs gonna happen until it's time for it to be done happening. I think there are also times that we just have to gut it out at different times like that we are actively working to like stay in this place, and to keep doing what we have to do, whether it's a job, a city, a church, whatever else it might be, you tell stories about all of these different things. How do you keep persevering when you know that you're not in your forever spot?

Katie Schnack  10:53  
I love that question. Because how do we ever know we're in our forever spot? Right? Well, yeah, you don't. And so I have a real this is a really weird story. One time Meryl Streep came to my husband's graduate program. He's an actor, and she came and talked to the actors, and then you were able to sit in the audience and whatever it was, Meryl Streep feels cool. Yeah. So I like raise my little hand and ask the question. I was like, what would you say to someone who, like wants to pursue a creative career, but they feel like they should do something that's more stable, and she's like, nothing stable. She's like, you could be an accountant, and you're gonna get fired tomorrow? Absolutely. And I was like, That's so true. So I think about that now, because like I said, I live on this hobby farm. Now. I'm like, I'm never leaving this home. Like, we've moved to a million states and in many places, and it's really challenging, and like, my family's here, and like, my kids are in school. But in the back of my mind, I'm like, but what if it isn't our forever home? Like, what if God does call us to somewhere else? And I think that no matter where you're at in life, you kind of always have to have that on the table. Because we don't know we can't control anything. But what we can do is trust that God is good, and that God has a plan. I don't know if anything ever is forever. But I think what we do know that God is forever good and trustable. And that's, that's what I placed my foundation in. And then I'm just like, whatever else? I don't know.

Jon Steele  12:16  
Yeah, absolutely. Yes, I like that, once again, we return to this place of like, whether things are fantastic. Or you're just feeling like you're kind of languishing away in a spot that it's like, okay, this feels super unstable. I don't know how long this is going to last. It could be done tomorrow, it could be 10 years from now or never. But thing that is stable is that God is stable. And what does it look like to lean in? And you know, putting these last two parts together of like, there are places of just accepting and there are places of actively moving and like working towards an end. But the in both of those things, it is what does it look like to trust that God is good, and that he's going to carry me through each of these, any of these circumstances. Katie, and many of your stories also have that moment where something finally slips free, and you can tell that you are on your way towards something better, something healthier, something that's just more you. For example, I'm thinking about the writing conference that you tell about. That you're waitressing. Hating it. Like that's the one thing you didn't want to go back to.

Katie Schnack  13:14  
Hated it. To this day. Bad memories.

Jon Steele  13:20  
Yes. And as you say, in your book, blessings to everybody who loves waitressing and is really good at it. But that's not you. That's not your story. But this writing conference opportunity pops up. And it's like, pretty expensive, especially given you and your husband's financial status at that time. But you're like, I feel like God is prompting me to say yes to this thing. You go to it, and you have this moment where something shifts, and all of a sudden, doors start to open up for you in that place. That's where you get connected with rusty and these new opportunities, from your experiences as best as you can capture it, how is it that you start to recognize when one of those shifts is happening and that the Lord is opening a door for you?

Katie Schnack  13:57  
So you know, I It's kind of goes back to what you were just saying is there's times where you can try to be like actively like fighting to get out of your situation or you know, like actively searching for that job actively doing whatever but doing everything you can, but then it's like God is the one that takes over the finish line. I feel like we never really know what's going to work. So for me personally, like I'm a doer, right? So I'll just do everything I physically can and then also like pray a lot along the way. Like, during that time, I applied to a million jobs and it was the worst. And I remember like is this it God? Is this it but then all of a sudden was like, No, this isn't and it's something better than I could ever have planned for myself. So I think that like it's definitely a balance between doing everything you can go the path that you feel in your heart and prayers really feel in your heart that you want to take right like when I prayed I was like Lord if you don't want me to be a writer, please change my heart because it's like the most obnoxious, weird book Do people even read books anymore? Like? Well, like it was so engrained in my heart. And I can see now, so many things that have happened since I released this book. I'm gonna have a next one coming up in September that like, it's for a reason. You know what I mean? It's just another ministry. I think just like prayerfully pursuing what you feel in your heart is where God's calling you. And then if it is, he'll help you get there. If it's not, it'll be clear, your heart won't be probably as broken, because you'll see, oh, it's not this. It's this. And this is the reason I just always try to do everything I can, and then just pray along the way and just trust God with the rest of it.

Jon Steele  15:36  
Yeah, I'm feeling this theme as we're talking that it is this active waiting process is what it feels like that you are consistently submitting yourself to God's will of like, Lord, what do you want from my life? Where are you taking me? These are the things that I feel really passionate about. But is that just me? Or is that you? And along the way, you're walking down this hallway of opportunities and knocking on every door? It's your job to sort of test and see Is it this one? Is it this one is at this opportunity? Until one of those doors starts to crack its way open? Okay, well, then I'm going to take the next step and see if it if it continues on from there.

Katie Schnack  16:11  
Absolutely. Yeah, I agreed and my husband were very different. And he has a very different method of waiting, okay. It's like he's more like, during these times of transition in these times of change, or like our gap decade, I would always be the one being like, let's try let's do this. And he would always be like, fine, but God will be the one that doesn't. So you know what I mean? And I think it's just such a balance of like, trying, actively waiting, but overall, like, just trusting, right? It's trusting and so important.

Jon Steele  16:40  
Yes, absolutely. That's, that feels like an important thread that weaves its way through each of these things that as we as we are, you know, back to Kevin, as we're spilling chili all over the place. Like we are watching for the places that the Lord is like, Okay, here's here's your pet that this analogy has crashed and burned really fast. But yes, that we can just feel like Kevin tripping and spilling chili all over the place. Meanwhile, like that, that's part of the process we're trying we are trying and failing. And that's okay. It is okay. It really is. But that we are recognizing that it is the Lord is leading us along this path and and activating these opportunities for us. Katie, your book is spilling over with jokes with witty turns of phrase hilarious mental images. I laughed out loud for longer than I should have about your blob fish comment. 

Katie Schnack
Oh, my gosh, did you? Did you Google the blog? 

Jon Steele
I did. I googled it absolutely.

Katie Schnack  17:42  
Explain that one. I’m like, “Lord, why did you make a fish like that?” You know, it's one of those mysteries of the world. 

Jon Steele  17:46  
Yes. But when you say I'm so sad that I looked like a blob fish. If you search that image, you understand exactly what you were feeling. And that's super helpful. And so it seems to me that, that humor is an important element of life here. I want to know for you, Katie, the humor that comes up in your book, is that stuff that you are actively engaging with as these moments are happening? Or is that something you're able to look back on? And and whether or not you're able to actively live in a world of humor as hard things are happening? How important is humor when someone finds themselves in these places?

Katie Schnack  18:22  
You know, I think like it's gonna be different for everybody. Right? Everybody goes in a different way. But for me, it is important because I don't know. It's just the way that I get through things. And I have a really morbid, weird story to tell you tell it the other day. I told you I live on a hobby farm. My best friend lives next door. She's an EMT. I work from home. She's home a lot when she started the fire station. And I had a goat who was sick. Okay, on a hobby farm. And we had the vet come on, I'm like, Mel, you need to come over. I don't think the goat is going to make it right. We're like we had like an on farm surgery with the vet. Like it was not I didn't grow up on a farm. Like there's just a little bit, the goat died. Down. And meanwhile, you're like bawling, but then cracking jokes about it at the same time. We're like, you know what I mean? So like, it's a weird, like, we're still really sad. Like, every day we call each other like, we just miss the go, we miss Rocky, but like then we'll crack on it. So I think it just depends. It's just the way that I process things. But then also some people probably listening to this are probably like, well, that's terrible. And so, I don't know, it's how I process things. It's what keeps me going like a lot of times to you my husband and I like whenever we're facing a really hard thing he'll just crack the joke at the perfect time. That makes me just be like, okay, like we're gonna get through this just like we got through all the other things. And so I just think it can be really cathartic and healing, whether it be a dead goat or...

Jon Steele  19:49  
Yes, like even in these someone or something close to you passes away and the Thera even in those places. There's room for humor to kind of help carry us through, hopefully people's postgraduate Experience is not like either of those things. But we can laugh in the midst of really hard things. 

Katie Schnack  20:05  
And you know what, though, like, what it is, is it's prolonged hardship, right? Like that, for me is like a hardship that can't ever be fixed. What do we do in the midst of those times where we cannot change our circumstances, right? Whether that be you're just out of college, you are unable to find a job and you are super broke or like, you are 35. And you're like, I just want to be married, but like, it's not happening right now. Like, what do we do in those times of prolonged hardship, that we can't change it? So what do you do, and for me, and that's where the humor comes in, it's like, you have to find ways to let have a little bit of joy within the times of hardship. Because like, if we can't actively change, this is my next book that's coming out in September, it's called Everything is not fine. I said in the book, I was like, This is so cheesy, but it's like, if you can't change your circumstances, change your attitude, you know what I mean? Like, it's so cliche and basic, but like, when you're in these times of very, very prolonged hardships, or I can never not be sad over my dead goat Rocky, like, what am I going to do with that then? Right? And so you have to find ways to have joy, despite the circumstances that you can't change?

Jon Steele  21:14  
Yes, absolutely. But this gets into that whole thing, the difference between joy and happiness? Yes. What does it look like to lean into joy when happiness maybe isn't an option?

Katie Schnack  21:23  
I say that in my next book, too. I know we're talking about the Gap Decade... In Everything is Not Fine, I say like, if we could just choose happiness, why don't we all just shoot it every day? Like, I'm gonna wake up and be like, I'm gonna, it doesn't work like that, right? Like being struggle with mental health or like, I have a child with a chronic illness like, and like, I can't just wake up and be like, it's fine. It's not fine. Right? So what do you do in the midst of that, and you and I say you fight for joy, and that there's a difference between choosing happiness and fighting for joy. And whether that be finding a way to laugh when you're really sad, or just, you know, finding a way to celebrate life when things are not very celebrate-able in the midst of it.

Jon Steele  22:03  
Absolutely. Katie, if you had the ear of someone who's just graduated, which, which you do, that's who many of our listeners are, what's one last piece of parting advice that you would give them as they step into this new season of post graduation life?

Katie Schnack  22:18  
I would say that, first of all, you're gonna be okay. But second of all, the one thing that I have always really kind of here to decide, like, and I'm trusting the Lord and all that. Don't let fear stop you from anything. Like when I wanted to write these books, right? Like, I was, like, Lord, take this desire away from me, it's too weird. Like, I don't trust that it'll ever happen. So it's so hard, whatever. It's like a big lofty dream. But when I really looked down at why it was feeling that way, the only thing stopping me from moving forward is was fear, right? Fear that I would fail fear that people will be like, Who is this weirdo, these weird words she's writing, I just kind of adhere to the standard that like, if fear is the only thing preventing you from moving forward and trying to pursue what you want to do in your heart. you've prayed about it, you've thought about it logically. But you're like, Ooh, I don't know. I'm just scared. Don't be just do it. Like, I just don't think that fear because this could get really morbid to you. But like, in my book, I talk about losing my best friend, she died when we were 19. And a lot of the times in my gap decades, specifically, I thought she didn't have the option to take this chance, she didn't get the option to chase her dreams. Like she wanted to. I have it. So like, if it's just fear stopping me, Well, screw that, like, I'm gonna do it. Like, if not for myself for her because she didn't get that choice. And like, I know, again, that's a really morbid, weird thing. But it's the truth. And so thinking of her was my catalyst during my gap decade to like, if it's just because I'm scared, I'm not gonna let that be the end all. And so I would just encourage anybody that's kind of stepping out into the world, trying to figure out what they want to do, trying to figure out where they fit in. Just listen to your heart about it, and just don't let fear stop you, and then just take the next step forward.

Jon Steele  24:05  
That's fantastic. It's so it's so easy to get held back from a better thing, because we're afraid like we know our current context, even if we don't like it, it can be very comfortable. This place that I'm in right now. It's not what I like, but I understand it, to move into something that might be better. But I but I don't know what it's like to be there can often just keep us right here in this place, instead of the better things that God has for us. And those can be scary things, not because there's something wrong with you. But because or anything wrong with the opportunity necessarily just because it is scary to change into something new, even if it's something better. I think that's a fantastic word. Don't let fear hold you back from making really good next steps on something. Katie, you've you've alluded to this a little bit, but what are you doing next? And how can people stay in touch with you so that they can keep learning from the experiences that you've had?

Katie Schnack  24:55  
Yeah, so I do have a book coming out on September 26. It's called every thing is not fine. Finding strength when light is annoyingly difficult. And so basically what it is it kind of alludes to some of the same things in the gap decade, but it's more like prolong hardships. And so like I said, My son has was born with a very rare illness. And it's like, it's like surgery after surgery like specialist after specialist, so that for my husband, and I was a very intense Crash Course of like, how do we continue to find joy? When we cannot change? He will have it forever, we can't fix him. So how do we continue to find joy when tomorrow we could be in a hospital again, right. So it's kind of like prolonged hardships, which again, sounds a little bit it's like a lot. But I also talk about like, the pandemic, because was the pandemic not also a crash course for everybody? Like, we do not know when this will end? Or when this will get better? Or if I'm gonna get sick tomorrow? So like, how do we still like create a life that we enjoy and love and trust in the Lord when we do not know what's going to happen, and we have no control over it too. So it's just kind of like a lot of stories about like, prolonged hardships, and it's just finding joy within them, and really trusting God through those times that we would never choose for ourselves, we would never have asked for. But we gotta walk through those anyway. So that's that. I'm excited about it. It's a lot. It has a lot of humor in it to like the gap decade, and it has a lot of like, themes that we can all relate to. It's not just about having a sick child or anything like that. But it's like, like, prolong hardships. What does that do to our faith? And how do we enjoy our life? In the midst of those things that we can't change? Follow me? anywhere online at at Katie snat sch na ck, I'm about to start tick tock and so right now, right, it's like, yeah, Instagram, tick tock, my website. It's all there. Amazon. You know,

Jon Steele  26:49  
Katie, thanks so much for being the companion that we didn't know we needed. Through transition through this gap decade, many of our listeners are just stepping into this season of life. So thanks a lot for investing time and us investing time and alumni and the trajectory that they're on coming out of graduation, and things are gonna things are, I was gonna say things are gonna be fine, but that seems weird knowing the title of your next book.

Katie Schnack  27:15  
No, yeah, we don't have toxic positivity Jon. Things might not be fine. But God will bring you through them and you will grow and then there's still so much beauty in life to be enjoy. So yes,

Jon Steele  27:26  
I love it. That's that's such a great way to put it. Well, thank you so much, Katie. I appreciate your time and getting to hang out with you today.

Katie Schnack  27:34  
Thank you.

Musical Interlude

Wrap up

Jon Steele  27:37  
If you remember back to the first two episodes of this series, in our conversation with Kathy Shao, we talked about William Bridges framework for transition that between ending well and new beginnings, we have this neutral zone, the liminal space between where we were and where we're going. So much of Katie's book, The Gap decade is about navigating that neutral zone. How do we wait? Well, while prayerfully pursuing the next steps that God's laying out for us, I cannot recommend Katie's book enough as you set out on this post graduation journey alumni, I've used the phrase companion piece a number of times already and I'll stand by that as I honestly do think reading this book feels like a friend who goes on the journey with you. Check out IV Pease website to grab your copy and don't forget about that alumni discount. Katie, thanks so much for joining us for this episode. I'm always grateful for someone who records their own path through challenging experiences. So the rest of us can benefit from it later. That's definitely happening here. The rest of you come back next week for our last entry in the finding your footing series. I'll be joined by 2023 Grad Halley, an alumna from Minnesota State Mankato, right here in my own backyard. We're going to have a discussion about Psalm 18. And what Scripture is teaching us about God walking with us through transition. We haven't done anything like this. So join us for an experiment and enjoy some time spent in Scripture with other alumni. Thanks for tuning in. And I will see you in the after alumni.

Podcast Outro – (Upbeat acoustic guitar music)

Hey, thanks so much for joining us today, Alumni. If there was anything that you learned, really enjoyed, or that encouraged you from today's episode, would you send us a DM or tag us in a story? We'd love to hear about it. You can find us @afterivpod on Instagram and Facebook. And if you haven't already, take just a second to unlock your phone and subscribe to the podcast. If your platform lets you, leave us a rating and a review. And if you like what we're doing here, share us with your InterVarsity or other post-graduation friends. Thanks again for listening. And I will see you in the after, Alumni.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai