After IV
E99: From Passion to Doubt to Spiritual Reawakening: The Story of Rocco’s Modern Life
 
Podcast Intro – (Upbeat acoustic guitar music)

Jon Steele  0:09  
Hey everyone. I'm Jon Steele. And this is After IV: a podcast for InterVarsity alumni. Life after college is hard. And even a great experience with your InterVarsity chapter doesn't shield you from the challenges of transition. As we hear stories from real alumni learning how to make it in their post-InterVarsity reality, my hope is that this podcast will offer some encouragement, a few laughs and even some hope for the future. This is After IV, and these are your stories.

Welcome

Hello, and welcome to After IV the podcast for InterVarsity alumni. I'm your host Jon Steele. And we are just one week away from our 100th episode. I am so excited to celebrate the last three years with you next week. Now it's too late to get them into the episode. But if you still haven't sent me a message about your favorite guests your favorite story, or how after four has encouraged you after graduation, you can still send those in. I would love to see them and maybe they'll make their way onto our Instagram or something. So find us a@afterivpod on socials or hit us up on SpeakPipe and share some of your personal favorites from After IV. 

All right, I want you to think back to a time when you were 100% sure that you just had a personal encounter with God. Like he went out of his way to make sure that you knew he was speaking to you specifically. Well, that is exactly the kind of story we're going to hear from our guest today. His name is Rocco definitely a contender for coolest name of the podcast to this year. And as Rocco was struggling to understand His purpose and was no longer interested in following Jesus, God made it abundantly clear that he was still very invested in Rocco. Enjoy his story. And this one's for you alumni. 

Musical Interlude

Interview

Jon Steele
Rocco, welcome to the podcast.

Rocco Cammarere  2:00  
Hey, thanks for having me, Jon.

Jon Steele  2:02  
Absolutely, it meant Can I say that? It's also really fun to get to talk to somebody whose name is Rocco.

Rocco Cammarere  2:09  
Sometimes it can be a good thing. Sometimes it can be a bad thing.

Jon Steele  2:14  
Did you ever grow up watching the TV show Rocco's modern life?

Rocco Cammarere  2:17  
Oh, of course I got actually, right on the side here. I got a deck of cards that are Rocco for life. Those bad boys to every party that I go to.
 
Jon Steele  2:28  
I love it. That's so great, man. When I could catch Rocco's modern life, it felt like I had won the day. The people that this podcast is made for, they'll have no idea what we're talking about. But you and I…

Rocco Cammarere  2:43  
Yeah, it’s fantastic. I love it.

Jon Steele  2:44  
This is just a little history lesson, little pop culture history lesson from years ago. So that's really awesome. Well, Rocco, would you take just a minute to introduce yourself? I feel like we already know some really important things about you from what you've already shared here. But would you just take a minute, introduce yourself? Help me help the rest of us get to know you a little bit?

Rocco Cammarere  3:02  
Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, my name is Rocco. I live in Central Connecticut, and moved up there after getting married. I'm an engineer by trade. I just recently started a job as a software engineer. So that's been very interesting. I've been completely inundated with new stuff, because I was not ready for it. But yeah, speaking from the firehose, right now, but yeah, I a couple years ago, I got married my Rebecca is my wife Rebecca, previously, Mel ragno. Now she's camera. We have one boy, Luca, he's one year old. And then now I play drums also for a worship team down here for this church, Immanuel Baptist. So just recently started playing drums for them. That's been really cool.

Jon Steele  3:44  
That's awesome. Rocco. Where did you Where did you go to school? How did you get involved with InterVarsity? You know, this is we're an alumni podcast. So we love to hear a little bit about people's background. Tell me Yeah. How did you get plugged in? 

Rocco Cammarere  3:56  
Yeah, so um, went to school at Clarkson University. For those who are familiar with it. It's in Potsdam, New York, pretty much you drive north in New York, until you hit farmlands, and then Amish country, and then nothing. And then there's Potsdam. Perfect. A perfect place for an engineering school. That's amazing. Yeah. And they, there's, there's a church there that I got to play drums in. And that church is the app once again, drums. And that church actually is where most of the the folks from IV, you know, they they attend there so that I got to know them and yada, yada, yada. Yeah, started getting involved in InterVarsity, you know.

Jon Steele  4:40  
That's awesome. Well, as you I mean, as you think about the time that you spent with InterVarsity Are there any like major standout moments that comes to your mind of like, wow, this was either really a formative experience that I had, or this was just a super fun thing that I just remember really fondly?

Rocco Cammarere  4:57  
Yeah, I mean, there are a lot of really good Moments from InterVarsity and went to, to Urbana, actually, this this kind of interesting story. I was going to Urbana I was going to get the bus to Urbana in I think it was Rochester, New York, I was going to catch it. And it was, you know, middle of, I think it's December, something like that. Yeah, that sounds about right. Yeah. And, and I just remember, like, you know, in upstate New York, it's snowing all the time in December. And, you know, I was looking for a place to park my car, because I lived in Utica, New York, and I'm looking around, and I just can't find any place to park and, um, you know, asking, you know, friends and stuff, and they're saying, Oh, just park in a Walmart, you know, but it was like, four days that I'd be there. And the Walmart basically said, Well, if you park here, you know, we would like to have you towed, because we have to plow. Right? So, there's no, there's no place to park, you know, and, um, and I know that the bus is coming, you know, any hour. So I called the number kind of in desperation that they had on one of the commuter lots, there was just this phone number there on the sign. And, and I get in contact with this older gentleman, and he said, You know, I'm going to figure out a way for you to, you know, stay, you know, keep your car safe. But okay, great. I get a call back from the police chief of a local, you know, district there. And she said, she's, she said, Well, you know, what, I am going to let you drive over to our site. And you can park here for the whole time, and then I'll give you a ride back. And you can, you know, take the bus, which I just completely blown away, because I knew I didn't know this lady, I didn't know the guy on the phone. But evidently, he had some pretty, pretty good contacts, because he got in contact with the police chief. And I just remember getting out of the car, when I got there, and just being like, thank you. And you know, I can't believe you're doing this for me. And she said, if anyone asked you, you're my son. My car, I parked my car, I go to the conference, and that conference was great. And I remember I took you know, I took like, a whole notebook of, of notes at that conference. Oh, yeah. Read through to two whole books at that conference, you know, just completely, completely absorbed in the material. And yeah, I mean, that was great. And it was New Year's. It was over the new years to get to celebrate the New Year, you know, and it was just phenomenal. I just remember looking around and seeing, you know, it's like, I don't know how many people were there. But it was 1000s of people. Yeah. And yeah, and, and they're just like singing and you know, one of my friends leaned over he said, “I think I know what heaven will be like.” Maybe! Yeah.

Jon Steele  7:45  
That's so cool. And getting a getting a police escort to your ride to Urbana is is pretty fantastic. And then and then to have and then to have the amazing Urbana experience that Urbana so often is like that's, that's super cool. Yeah, love that.

Rocco Cammarere  8:03  
Definitely, definitely one to put in the, in the, in the yearbook or whatever. Exactly. 

Jon Steele  8:09  
For sure. Yes, yes. So Rocco, you're a part of this, this InterVarsity chapter that's on a campus that's out in the middle of nowhere, going to Urbana, getting to experience the small taste of maybe what heaven is going to be like, and, and these kinds of things, I'm assuming these kinds of things just kind of continue throughout your college career throughout your time with InterVarsity. And then, and then inevitably, graduation comes along. And so just like, kind of big picture, what were the expectations that you had for your life? As you were on the brink of graduation? What did you think like, this is what's going to happen next for me?

Rocco Cammarere  8:44  
Yeah, I mean, I had a lot of plans. Okay. You know, I think that was the story of my life in college is, you know, always had every, you know, a three year outlook, basically, fully planned out, career wise, I was, I knew where I was going, you know, I knew that I, I didn't know much about what I'd be doing, or like it. But I knew I was gonna be going there, and they would be paying my bills, which is a good thing. A good side effect, too, is that actually my roommate from Clarkson, he was going to be my roommate down there. He ended up being my roommate for another eight years. So that was, it was it was a very struggle friendship that we didn't even think. Yeah, so that's awesome. Yeah, you know, relationship wise, I was actually in this was with my previous relationship, and I had been with that person for about two to three years. So, you know, my expectation was, you know, okay, I'm graduating, you know, she's probably gonna be graduating pretty soon, too. You know, likely a year or so we might be tying the knot or, you know, thinking about next steps. And then spiritually, I was really, I mean, I was like, so on fire. I was, you know, all the InterVarsity reaching out and, you know, ministering to me People and you know, and I and I was really I don't know, if you're a big fan of like apologetics but I was huge into the apologetics scene and like reading all the different books and you know, so So I had this, you know, huge passion for Okay, I'm going to read all this apologetics, it's going to be super beneficial from multiple people. Maybe even the workplace, you know, so I had big expectations, you know, going out and I had a big plan going out.

Jon Steele  10:26  
Yeah, it sounds like it sounds like you had spent some time you would put in the work you were preparing? And I mean, and it seems to me that you were pretty hopeful that like, okay, there are good things on the horizon for life after graduation. So what happens next for you?

Rocco Cammarere  10:42  
Yeah, boy, a lot of good things happened. But there are a lot of unexpected things. You know, in my career, I felt like I was doing well, I, you know, I, I worked like crazy. I think I worked, you know, probably 12 hour days each day? Oh, my gosh, yeah. Well, mostly because I, you know, I just, I didn't want to put anything down. And the company, you know, had a very complex thing that they that we worked on. So there was no shortage of, of things to learn and things to do. So I had a hard time finding a work life balance, you know, just didn't come natural, you know, relationally, the relationship I was in at the time, instead of moving in what I'd say is probably more positive direction, we started to realize that we had big gaps, you know, in our, in our compatibility, trying to bridge those gaps was very difficult. Spiritually, it was a big struggle, I started working a job, which often required me to work on Sundays. And I realized at that point, how really, you know, it's credibly difficult to find church that happened on Saturdays, or even Sunday afternoons, I could not find anything, I was looking around, trying to find a group, similar to what I had at IV, which was, you know, like, a number of people, you know, super welcoming, super open, you know, super intelligent, when it came to the Bible, and all these different things, but I just, I just had a hard time finding it. To add on to that my career, there were, surprisingly, a small amount of people who are really, you know, believers of anything, you know, those folks were, you know, they were, either they just went to church on Christmas, or they, you know, actively did not like the church, you know, and it was, it was kind of discouraging, because these were folks that were really intelligent folks that I looked up to that were telling me things like, you know, that it, this is crazy, and it was invented. And so eventually, you know, all this, you know, uncertainty, you know, lack of a supportive Christian community, you know, in that and, and just the doubt, I mean, because of all what I just learned, I just became very cynical. And I kind of ran my excitement for the faith into the ground. So it, you know, eventually I just kind of got to a point where I was, you know, so frustrated that I just said, you know, my career pays my bills, and I just sort of, you know, became, you know, well, I'm not, I'm not going to spend much more time on this face stuff, because it's just not too helpful. I'd rather focus on the thing that makes me money and make sense of the world around me. So then, yes, I, I basically, you know, I didn't, you know, make it public. Tell everybody, but I, I walked away and stopped going to church.

Jon Steele  13:24  
I imagined that that took an incredible toll on you. 

Rocco Cammarere  13:27  
And it's not like it, you know, happened overnight, right? It was like, you know, little things in your life, and it just sort of pile pile pile or, you know, you know, making more and more cynical making more and more doubtful. And then eventually, you're just like, why am I doing all this? I do. I'm much more happy when I'm not doing all this. So I'll just, you know, I'll just call it quits.

Jon Steele  13:47  
It's clear that that is not where you ended up? What was it that that changed that story for you? 

Rocco Cammarere  13:54  
Yes. So um, I remember I was, I was traveling for work, there was an issue with one of our products. And I had just traveled to Korea, Taiwan, and Texas over the span of maybe three months, just getting screamed at by customers. Just to give you an impression the guy in Taiwan that I was communicating with the customer, he said that he would have nightmares about this. I can't explain the event, obviously, but this event would happen, and then things would go wrong. And you could have millions of dollars of damage from one of these events. And basically, they you know, the company that he that that employed him, viewed him as the guy that would fix this. And so they just said you fix it and then every time that there was this millions of dollars with damage, you know, it's him that was getting yelled at so so you can imagine the he's just taking all that dumping it onto our group, and it was just exhausting. I pulled so many all nighters there and I was just exhausted and then I did. Once I finished that I did the same exact thing, and another customer and then I did the same exact thing and another customer And each customer was just just enough different to create a really difficult environment. So I was just really tired. I remember sitting in a, there was a Best Western, you know, in Texas, and, and just staring up the ceiling fan and just sitting there like, I didn't feel like I solved anything. I felt like, if anything, I just prolonged this, that issue. We don't know what's wrong, we don't know how to fix it, we, we've just put band aids over stuff. And I'm just staring at the ceiling and just thinking, you know, I don't believe that there's God anymore. I don't believe that there's any reason to be proud of the work I'm doing. very depressed, just super low, very tired. You know, just a really a really rough patch. And I just remember sitting there and lay and just feeling numb, like completely numb, just so sad. And then at that moment, I get a message from Glen Ewart, the leader of our group from IV, okay, he had messaged me the day before, and I he gives me letters and stuff to let me know what's going on there. He had messaged me just asking for my updated address, because I changed and, and I sent him my updated address. I just sent him the address, I gave no context, you know, of how I'm feeling nothing. And he just responded back via email, I get that email, right then I remember sitting there my laptops open, I get an email. It's funny, you know, I get an email is from Glen. And he's and I open it up. And he said, Thank you for the address. They just said, rock, I just want to know, I don't do this very often. I wish I had the email in front of me. But it was very similar to what I'm seeing right now, as I said, I don't normally do this very often, but I just want to know, how are you doing? And how is your walk with God? Cuz I just don't feel like something's right, which I imagined for him probably felt very awkward. Because he doesn't, he knows nothing about my situation. You know, I'm not sending him small hints that I'm that I'm having a hard time.

Jon Steele  16:49  
I sent him an address and nothing else. 
Rocco Cammarere  16:53  
Yeah, literally an address. Yeah. I don't respond back. But I was a little bit weirded out by it. And then right then also, my grandmother was a huge believer, you know, she's a really great believer. And she called me right then. And she left a message because I didn't answer I was not in a in a in a position to really feel like, like answering anyone's calls. And she just said, Rocco, I'm feeling like you're just having a hard time. Can you give me a call back? And let me know. And I'm just, those two things happen. And I'm not even joking with you within the course of like an hour. It's like these Tuesday, well, I'm laying there. And I'm just super sad. And to be honest, when when it happened, you think I'd be like, there is a God and like, you know, or whatever. And that was totally not my response. My response was pure frustration and anger. I was I had been so convinced. And I've been so like precondition to believe that this was not true. That for me, I was just trying to figure out how on earth do these people like, Did I send something on Facebook is theirs? Did someone hear something? Like…

Jon Steele  17:54  
There has to be a logical explanation.

Rocco Cammarere  17:56  
Yeah, is Google listening to me? But I just, I was so blown away. I was just frustrated. But then his great, I said, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna try it and start, you know, going back to church a little bit, you know, or just, you know, because it was just so weird that I just felt like, there's something, something special about that. And I have to say, it was so hard going back, I was so cynical. And it's like, you know, you just have so many formed opinions in your head. But, you know, just keep, keep telling myself, you know, there's a reason why that thing happened. So like, I just got to sit and listen. And yeah, I mean, there throughout the course. I mean, there's, there's lots of little, you know, times were God spoke to me like there was other people who are in technical fields, who, who gave me their stories about how they came to faith and how they felt God's presence.

Jon Steele  18:51  
I would have to think this will now be a lifelong season, potentially, of, of coming back to Jesus, of relearning, of unlearning of like asking big questions of having doubts. It's not all puppies and rainbows, believing in Jesus, that's like, there are things that I cannot explain. And that do not make sense. And that is really difficult for me. And this is what the life of faith looks like, is saying, Yep, I cannot, I cannot answer all of these things. But you know, Hebrews 11:1, “Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.” That is the reality that we live in. And therefore it is this lifelong experience of okay, what does it look like for me to trust Jesus in the midst of these things, especially with the history that I've had of just of not believing? That makes it that much harder.

Rocco Cammarere  19:43  
And you know what, what made it more helpful, at least for me is like, I just found that when I had that mind of just stop with the cynical, listen, and then learn how it applies to your life and then just go to apply it. I just found God to be just so unmistakably faithful I like for instance, I was in that previous relationship for about eight years. And it was really difficult because there were there gaps. And later in that eight years, I was coming back to the Lord. But that was a huge problem for me was, it's not like, I break this branch off, and we're good. You know, it's like, families are super close. Friends are super close, I haven't had a relationship outside of this person, you know, and I just remember the Lord constantly telling me, this is not the route I want you to go. But we were happy going on trips and having a great time. And but just, you know, that the feeling in my gut was, this is not okay. And man, I just remember the day that I that I broke it off. I just remember sitting there and just like, saying to God, please, don't make me do this. Yes, I was getting her at a train station, I just said, please just let it work out naturally, she just decides to leave me or all of a sudden, she has a change of heart and everything is perfectly compatible. And that was not an answered prayer. That was to my liking. You know, I did it. It was extremely messy. My friends had to take my phone. For months, I was just complete gloom and doom. But sure enough, God sent me back I am convinced this day that he set me back up, and then just every day just confirmed more in my mind that this is the right woman for me. And to this day, you know, it's been phenomenal. And, and it just, that was one thing I there's there's so many things, all that to say I just feel like if you let God lead you, and you have that doubting spirit, like the Thomas doubting spirit, or you have these circles, just over time, you're just going to realize that stuff happens in life that you can't explain. And you're just really thankful. And you know, that it's from God. And just like, I think, I think I think believing more and more, you know, more and more as the days go by, no matter what anyone tells you, you're not going to change that belief, because you've lived it.

Jon Steele  22:04  
Yeah, Rocco. So as I think about our our listeners for the show, and the you know, the audience that we make this for, it's for alumni who are in there, who are looking towards graduation, and who are in their first year after graduation, that's really those are really the people that we are that we're wanting to speak to here and, and help bridge that gap based on these experiences that you've had. Do you have any advice that you would give to somebody that is about to step into? Or who finds themselves in the midst of this post graduation season of life?

Rocco Cammarere  22:37  
Sure. Yeah, absolutely. I just preface this by saying that when I got to college, understanding a truth about something like a truth that I felt was a real truth was like worth it. It was it was, it was completely worth, like more than millions of dollars, it was the most important thing. You know. So I just say I would say one thing, it's like, just keep appreciating the truth that you have in the Bible. You know, even if you don't understand it, even if you think because you've listened to it, you know, someone's preached on it many times that you think, Okay, this is just getting boring already know this, like, just appreciate that truth. Because one day you'll you'll go to it. But because you've lived it and you've seen it, you'll really love it. And you'll really appreciate it. So do that first. Another thing is just pragmatically expect uncertainty, you know, you're getting out of college you picked, I don't know, hardly anybody who knew exactly what they wanted to be going into college, even coming out of college, I had no idea what I wanted to be. So just expect uncertainty, expect uncertainty with friends, with college, with school, with relationships, just expect a big package of uncertainty. come your way. Yes, expect challenges to what you know, because, you know, when I came out, I thought I had everything figured out I wasn't further from the truth, what you thought was true, might not be true. And and that's okay. You know, and and, you know, just understand that God is going to going to teach you in one way or another, to either learn more, and to want to gain more knowledge to fill that gap. Or to just understand that that's an area that you just just leave it leave it as it is. That's I'd say probably a lot of things.

Jon Steele  24:29  
That's fantastic, which I mean, and each one of those things seems to point back to the to the first thing that you said, which is I mean, which is maintaining that foundation with I mean with God moving forward with the Lord in His Word, like his word is what he's given to us. He continues to enlighten us as we go back and go back and go back again and again to His Word and like these are the things that and we may have a wrong interpretation of His word, but we keep going back to it and saying like, Oh man, no, God is like refreshing my mind. To better understand, like, what he means here and what I'm supposed to do with this, and that, I mean, that is our foundation that we keep returning to is, is Jesus death and resurrection That we are reconciled to God through Him that we have his word to help train us and teach us how to live our lives. And that stuff still isn't gonna make sense. And that that's okay. It's okay to live in the uncertainty because that is life. And there's some amount of adventure in the uncertainty like that. That's it. So just enjoy the adventure and live it according to the way that God is training you to live through His Word. And like that, to some extent, it's like, that's the best you can do. And he will correct you and train you and redirect you through that process. And 1015 20 years down the road, you'll look at things differently than you did not because of a book that you read, but because of the way that God has been transforming you, Rocco, thank you so much for for spending some time sharing the story. And I'm sure that I'm sure that there's some amount of this that like, it's a great, it's a great story to be able to tell, but it's probably I, I would have to think it's not always the easiest thing to go back and like walk through because you experienced some pretty dark, difficult stuff. And so I appreciate you being willing to step back into some of those places and share knowing that there are alumni who are in or will experience these kinds of things. And to let them know like there is hope in the midst of some of the darkest places of your life. Like Jesus is there with you. And he is he's fighting for you. Yep. And he he's he wants to he wants to welcome you into his arms. And sometimes it just takes a it takes your your or sometimes it just comes in the form of your campus staff asking for your for your address and your grandma giving you a call.

Rocco Cammarere  26:47  
Yeah, yeah. Sometimes crazy things like that little little things. Yes.

Jon Steele  26:51  
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks a lot, Rocco, for sharing your story. I appreciate it very much. 

Rocco Cammarere  26:56  
Yeah, of course. Yeah. Thanks for having me on. I hope somebody hope somebody benefits from it.

Musical Interlude

Wrap up

Jon Steele  27:04  
At the beginning of the episode, I asked if you'd ever had an encounter with God, something like the one Rocco just shared with us. A few weeks back, I shared a story about breaking down crying on the floor in my little one room apartment here in Mankato. It was my first year of grad school first time being so far away from home. Well, I'm not sure if the story I'm about to tell was the same night or a different night. It's hard to keep track. But I was crying on the floor in my tiny apartment. And I remember just laying facedown, holding out my hand and literally begging God just to touch me, like to actually reach out and make tangible physical contact with me. And I 100% believed that he could do it. And so I just laid there waiting and begging. I have no idea how long I was laying there. But all of a sudden, my mom calls great. We all know that we never want mom to see that we've been crying. It's just a conversation that you're not prepared to have. So I wiped the tears off my face. I tried to get myself all put back together, tried to get my voice sounding normal again. And I answered the phone. But it wasn't my mom's voice coming through the speaker. It was someone singing to me. And in that moment, I heard these words: 

I love you more than the Sun and the stars that I taught how to shine, 
You are mine and you shine for me too. 
I love you yesterday, and today. And tomorrow. 
I'll say it again and again. I love you more. 

And then the line went dead. My mom didn't say a word she just called let the chorus of that song play through her phone, and then hung up. And I sat there on the floor in absolute shock. And all I could say was you actually did it God, you actually reached out and touched me. In that moment, I was confident that God was listening and that he cared and that he wanted to let me know. And I've also had plenty of moments where that didn't happen. But nearly 15 years later, I've never forgotten that night. 

Alumni. If you've had a moment like that, I want to encourage you to write it down and put it somewhere that you can easily find it. Go back and read at any time you find yourself completely lost and confused like what Rocco was experiencing. And if you haven't had a moment like that, it's okay. moments like those are not a requirement for confirming God's existence or his love for you. But for now, maybe just let this be one of those moments. Jesus sees you. He knows you. He loves you. He is right there with you. Keep going. The season you find yourself in won't last forever. You will be okay. And if you ever need someone to talk to in the meantime, how we're just a DM away. 

Rocco. Thanks so much for joining us today and thanks for sharing the story. We need to hear more stories like this one. 

Alumni, I am so excited to hang out with you next week while we celebrate 100 episodes of After IV together. It's going to be a great time. We're going to share some memories together. We're gonna have an exciting announcement, and I'm looking forward to spending that time together. Be sure to come back for it. Thanks for tuning in. And I will see you in the after, alumni.

Podcast Outro – (Upbeat acoustic guitar music)

Hey, thanks so much for joining us today, Alumni. If there was anything that you learned, really enjoyed, or that encouraged you from today's episode, would you send us a DM or tag us in a story? We'd love to hear about it. You can find us @afterivpod on Instagram and Facebook. And if you haven't already, take just a second to unlock your phone and subscribe to the podcast. If your platform lets you, leave us a rating and a review. And if you like what we're doing here, share us with your InterVarsity or other post-graduation friends. Thanks again for listening. And I will see you in the after, Alumni.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai