After IV
E92: Self-Control Instead of Reckless Indulgence: Beyond Willpower and Positive Thinking
 
Podcast Intro – (Upbeat acoustic guitar music)

Jon Steele  0:09  
Hey everyone. I'm Jon Steele. And this is After IV: a podcast for InterVarsity alumni. Life after college is hard. And even a great experience with your InterVarsity chapter doesn't shield you from the challenges of transition. As we hear stories from real alumni learning how to make it in their post-InterVarsity reality, my hope is that this podcast will offer some encouragement, a few laughs and even some hope for the future. This is After IV, and these are your stories.

Welcome

Hello there! Welcome to After IV, the podcast for InterVarsity alumni. I'm your host Jon Steele. Great to be together again this week. Hey, just a quick reminder that this was our last episode before we take a break for a few weeks. As I mentioned last time, we'll have some great bonus content coming your way between now and our next new episode. You're gonna get to hear some previously unheard moments from a few of our recent guests. So stay tuned for those offerings. All right. Last week, we were chatting with Jay Kim, a pastor and author of the book analog Christian cultivating contentment and resilience and wisdom in the digital age. Jay was sharing with us the challenges of living in a world where we are so heavily inundated with digital content and one of those challenges is the nearly constant opportunity to compare ourselves to others. The issue is that this doesn't just provide some harmless entertainment. Research is finding that this constant comparison is extremely harmful to our mental health and our general well being. Thankfully, Jay has been pointing us to the antidote. Joy not happiness, not pleasure or good times, but actual biblical joy, joy that is rooted in closeness to God and in the understanding that God's goodness is relentless. This is the joy that Jesus clung to as he endured the cross. And it's the same joy we have access to in the presence of God. Whether the circumstances around us are wonderful or absolutely terrible. If you haven't listened to that first episode, go back and do that now because today we wrap up our conversation around joy. Jay is going to help us further develop our understanding of joy and provide us with a simple tool for cultivating it all day long. Then we'll spend the rest of the episode talking about our proclivity toward reckless indulgence and insecure self control. Here's Jay, and this one's for you alumni. 

Musical Interlude

Interview

Jon Steele
If I'm reading your book correctly, Jay, I think that you're even saying that those really challenging moments in between are actually fuel for joy. They're not just the things that we sort of like that we grit our teeth and get through because we have joy, but that those things are actually useful for fueling the joy that we have. Can you talk a little bit more about some of the like, Hashtag blessed and the struggle that leads to joy?

Jay Kim  3:04  
Yeah, you know, I love John's Gospel, Jesus in John's Gospel in chapter 16. He's got that famous line. He says, In this world, you will have trouble what a sobering line, you know, we typically just kind of like skim over that part of it because the second part is so awesome. But the first part I think we just need to sit in it for a while. This is Jesus talking. This is not like, you know, some pastors Jesus himself says he acknowledges No it's gonna be hard, like life will bring you trouble, but take heart, I have overcome the world, inferring I have overcome the world and all of its troubles, not that you will not have trouble but when you have trouble Take heart, because that trouble will not overcome me therefore if you are with me will not overcome you. Like you just said, This Too Shall Pass is essentially what he's saying. So you know, Henry now and the great writer Henry now and he says that joy and sorrow are never separate. Right? Which is so anti the version of joy or happiness or pleasure that culture wants to sell us. It's all about separating ourselves from sorrow and pain and hardship and inconvenience. But Dallin says, taking Jesus's words here to heart to when sorrow and ever separated joy is hidden in sorrow and sorrow and joy, which is so interesting. And then now it goes on. He says, If we try to avoid sorrow at all costs, we may never taste joy. Wow. Which is like, so beautiful, profound, the late great Tim Keller, I think he sort of expounds on this idea. He's got this wonderful book called walking with God through pain and suffering. And he explains it this way. In that book, he says that, other worldviews, non Christian worldviews, they lead us to sit in the midst of life's Troy's or seeing the coming sorrows. So other worldviews are all about hey, like, feel good. Now enjoy this now, but there's some bad stuff coming in. It's gonna be a bummer, but whatever. Let's just have a good time right now. But then Kelly goes on, he says, But Christianity, the way of Jesus empowers its people to sit in the midst of this world, sorrows tasting in the present. The coming Joy All right, all wrongs, set the world right, and usher in a whole new era and eternal forever a kingdom of real joy. And we can taste that joy. Now, in the midst of all of our pain. So, you know, if you type in the hashtag blast on Instagram or whatever, it's never sorrow. It's never pain. It's never hardship. It's always a Mai Tai on the beach, or like the brand new car or whatever. Yes, and I'm not saying those things are bad. I'm just saying, we have a misunderstanding of what the blessed life actually is. That blessing is like… real blessing is not feeling good. real blessing is the ability to have joy deep in our body and bones in the midst of pain and suffering and sorrow. That's a real blessing. You know, you think about the Beatitudes. Yes, Jesus has wonderful words that sort of kick off his great sermon on the mount. And all of those different types of people he says are blessed, especially within the context of the day, those were not the blessed, you know, those are not the people in the world at the time in the cultural context of the day. Those are not the people others looked at and said, Wow, they're living the good life. That's not it, you know, the poor, the meek. It's critically important that we understand what blessing really looks like that it is the ability to live in and alongside the presence of a good God in the midst of our pain, and know that his goodness never wavers. And in that truth, we find a deep sort of underpinning of joy that becomes the foundation of our lives rather than a sort of fleeting spark of pleasure that we're constantly chasing.

Jon Steele  7:25  
Wow, Jay. This is ultra inspiring as I'm listening to this, and that feels like an easy place then to just stop is to feel inspired. Can you give us just one practical next step for pursuing joy instead of comparison?

Jay Kim  7:41  
Yeah, so many, but one that I think all of us can do right away, is to consider reflect on one simple gift from God. So there's one that everyone listening to this has. That's universal. It's the breath in your lungs. And it sounds a little trite, but you know, you think about it in the scriptures. The word for Spirit, you know, the Spirit of God in both the Hebrew and the Greek Ruach and Hebrew and new Greek. Both words mean wind or breath. So for Christians who are followers of Jesus, it's a reminder that every breath we take, you know, as the Spirit of God resides within us, every breath we take is a reminder of the energizing, animating Spirit of God. That is with us and in us. So that's one thing we could all be grateful for, to take 30 seconds of your day to take some very deep breaths in and out and think God was every breath. You know, breath prayers are something I practice pretty regularly and for those who are unfamiliar breath prayers are exactly what they sound like. They are simple, very short. Prayers you recite consistently over the course of a day or a month or years while taking a few breaths. So one of my most recent breath prayers has been a god you control outcomes. So I'll spend 30 seconds throughout the day, several times in a day, sitting on the sofa in my office.  Feet firmly planted on the ground, and just taking deep breaths in and then on my exhale, I'll just pray God, you control outcomes. My calling is just to be faithful. I'll do that a few times a day. And it infuses me with gratitude and with joy. And now knowing that God's in control I'm not and all he's asking me is to be faithful. So that's one thing we can do you know, is to just take a moment out of your day, take something ordinary in your life, that is a gift from God, and thank him for it. It has a powerful way of putting everything into perspective.

Jon Steele  9:48  
Yeah, and I like the simple fact that if that's something you do multiple times throughout the day, you will inevitably hit the good, the bad and the boring. Over the course of your week over the course of your month. And it grounds you in that very simple practice of in this terrible moment. God is in control of outcomes in this great moment. God is in control of outcomes, and that like okay, my hope is in you. No matter what happens, Jesus. And that is something that I can be incredibly joyful about. I love that that simple practice in a very real way can ground us again and again and again, no matter the circumstances around us. That's well said. Let's keep going here. Let's jump into chapter eight. We've talked about joy instead of comparison, let's shift our focus to self control instead of reckless indulgence. And once again, just really briefly, can you ground us in reality just a little bit as far as our tendency to over indulge?

Jay Kim  10:48  
Well, you know, previously when we were talking about joy I shared some of that data, you know, on our digital addictions. The fact that we are the average, not even the high usage person, but the average smartphone user is on their phone three hours a day. We unlock our phones 150 times a day. There's all sorts of data about email addiction, in fact, I would confess that is one of my deepest darkest struggles is email, okay? And it's connected to all sorts of feel and by God's grace, it's gotten so much better and I delete my email when I'm on vacation with my family. It's been so helpful, but yeah, for many years, and still to this day, you know, it's not easy for me to stay off of email. There's always a temptation to check my email first thing in the morning and when I really honest with myself, it's tied to all sorts of insecurities and brokenness in me, you know, I get that little blue dot that tells me I have a new email. And it's the enemy of God whispering to me, yeah, you're important. You matter. And, you know, which is a lie because my significance is not tied to people needing me and sending me emails requesting things of me, my identity and my significance inside to the fact that God knew me before you for me in my mother's womb, and that he said to Son to die for me and for all of us because we are made in His image, you know, we are his sons and daughters. So anyways, all sorts of data, you know, whether it's email or social media consumption, which is just it's just bonkers. Now, you know, like, how many I forget what the numbers are, but like 1.8 billion people on Facebook, you know, over a billion people globally on Instagram, these are active users. You know, and then you have all sorts of new platforms coming out. However, whatever the number is, I think it's over a billion active users on tick tock, you know, we're just constantly consuming, you know, constantly consuming and we are all over the place, and then you get to the really, really sort of dark, destructive side. Of of the internet with pornography. I just recently read a statistic that says that 50% of American noise and 32% so half of American boys and a third of American girls are exposed to online pornography. Before their teenage years. I mean, before their teenage years, literally when they're 12 and younger, which for me, is the dad of an eight year old and a five year old. It is a frightening, absolutely sobering statistic. So again, reckless indulgence on the internet, it is pervasive with reckless indulgence. And it's killing us. You know, it's really undoing something in us on an individual level. And I would say on a societal level, the researchers Gene 20. And Jonathan Hite. They've done a lot of work in recent years they have this famous graph that was in the New York Times based on extensive research over the course of a decade, where they measured the rates of anxiety and depression in high school students. And you can just google this chart. It's fascinating. You see this graph in rates of anxiety and depression and suicidal ideation. And the graph sort of increases very slightly slowly from like, 2005 or something to about 2012 And then in 2012, for both teenage boys and girls. You just see this immense swing upward, this extremely alarming increase in teenage anxiety and depression and suicidal ideation and Twain me and height. They also note 2012 is when one smartphones became pervasive in the hands of teenagers. And when social media jumped to the next level, it went from just being sort of Facebook, to now the advent of Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook sort of opening up to everybody. And they suggest that I think that they're right, that this incredible spike in anxiety and depression amongst teenagers was in large part and maybe overwhelmingly so in large part due to the advent of social media and how much time teenagers began spending online. So yeah, reckless indulgence to be sure. It's doing something in us, again, at an individual and societal level that I think we need to pay real attention to.

Jon Steele  15:37  
And I mean, many of our current listeners would be people who were in the midst of that era, right, who are living the realities of what you're talking about right now. And that's for me, that's a really sobering idea that the people that are listening to this podcast are who you are talking about, right? Now, those people in 2012, where that sharp turn really started. And these these realities don't exist just because like it's not just the old this is just the way that it is that something is influencing them. So I wonder, Jay, as best as you can. Can you tell us what are some of the internal and external forces that are influencing this tendency to over indulge?

Jay Kim  16:20  
Yeah, on the one hand, there is just the reality of the flesh, you know, and I'm using that term in a biblical way. When the biblical writers you know, the New Testament writers, Paul, in particular, talks about the struggle of the flesh. He's got that, you know, famous line in Romans seven where he says, He's like, he's at the end of his rope, you know, and he's like me, I don't know what I'm doing. Like I don't understand what I do, is a wonderful line. This is Paul in Romans which is sort of his magnum opus, yeah, this beautiful, incredibly deep, rich, spiritual, theological treatise. And he says, I don't understand what I do. And then he says, because what I want to do, I don't do and then what I hate, that's the stuff I do. And if Paul the Apostle Paul, no, the author of two thirds of the New Testament could admit such a thing. I think we could all admit such a thing. That's so true for all of us, like all the stuff I want to do the the life I want to live, you know, faithfulness to Jesus. I don't do that. And the stuff that I hate, my addictions and my digital proclivities and the sort of incense and scrolling and my reckless indulgence online, and all sorts of shameful, you know, embarrassing ways. Stuff I hate, but that's the stuff I ended up doing right and that's the flesh. That's the flesh. There's so much to say about it, but I actually think in some ways, it's pretty simple. Our tendency to recklessly indulge is tied to the reality that we are sinful, broken humans. Living in broken, sinful flesh. But there's hope. Right, you think about Paul's words and II Corinthians 4. He says, Actually, yeah, like our bodies are like Jars of Clay, but it's what he says. And you know, at the time context is helpful here. Jars of Clay. They're cheap. Archeologists have found they dug up in the ancient Near East, like hundreds of 1000s of jars of clay in areas that in the ancient world were like poor. So Jars of Clay were these really cheap household items that anybody could have. And typically because it was so cheap, it was primarily used by the poor, but even the rich at the time of Paul, when he wrote those words in II Corinthians 4 when he says we have this treasure and jars of clay. At that time, wealthy people were actually fond of hiding their valuable possessions like jewelry, family heirlooms. They were fond of hiding those things in jars of clay. The reason they would do it obviously is because people at the time which see a jar of clay and just assume is a cheap old jar clay. It's like a poor person's clay jar. There's nothing in there. So they would hide treasure, family heirlooms jewelry, expensive things in jars of clay to deter, you know, thieves. You know, it takes on a whole new meaning when you read Paul's words we have this treasure the gift of life in jars of clay in our sort of fleshly broken sinful bodies, and to do what to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us. Well. So where that's helpful is that there is possibility out of the destructive path of reckless indulgence and it is the power of God and the power of God can move within the jar of clay that is our broken life. And I think that's the way forward and right to invite God by His Spirit. It was his surpassing power that is unlike anything we could harness in and of ourselves, to ask him with his power, to change us and to form us and to change our desires. So that we desire reckless indulgence less and less and desire the things of God more and more.

Jon Steele  20:11  
That is such a humbling yet empowering, thing. I don't know just like that reality of talking about these things. It would be really easy to turn inward as we know because these things are talking about is our tendency to do anyways, but then also just to have this thought of like, gosh, I am just really messed up and a good for nothing. And like there's just nothing I bring nothing good to the equation. And to put that thought of that. Yes, we are. We are these broken vessels and yet God has chosen to put these things of life inside of us that he hasn't put it in some really nice flashy pot somewhere else or vase somewhere else. He's like no in you. You're going to be the one in you broken people, the ones that are the problem and are contributing to the problem. I'm also going to put the way of life into you that you can also be a part of bringing life to the world around you that is also experiencing this problem. But that's, that's fascinating that we get to be a part of that in the midst of all of this darkness that we're talking about. Like that's, that is absolutely amazing. Jay, there's so many more things that I want to ask you about. I want to ask about the two systems that you talk about in this chapter because that was super cool to me, and talking about how you can sort of hijack the system to work in your favor. Please everybody get this book if for nothing else to read about these two systems and how you can use them to your to your benefit. That was really cool. But once again as we hear this encouragement, can you just give us like one step that we could take today towards pursuing self control over reckless indulgence?

Jay Kim  21:49  
That's a great question. A couple of thoughts come to mind. One, I think it is living with an awareness that you and I that we do not have enough strength or willpower within ourselves to get the job done. I think we believe in the myth of willpower, you know, like I could just will my way toward the sort of life I want that I think God has for me, it's not possible willpower. alone is not enough. So a couple of things are necessary one, a humble surrendering to the Spirit of God while just an acknowledgement that I need God by His Spirit, to change me and inviting God by His Spirit. Do that work in us day by day, hour by hour, minute by minute, that's one next step and two, this is a much longer conversation. But if willpower alone is not enough, then what do we need and I would suggest and many others as well. far smarter than me would suggest what we need is not just willpower and desire and longing. What we need is practice. You know what I mean? Like, I love playing basketball, but if I want to become a better shooter, I can just go out there on the court and think to myself during a game you know what, like, I'm just gonna make more shots today. Yes, no matter what I'm doing it I'm doing it. I'm doing it willpower. You know, like, I think I can. I think I can, you know.

Jon Steele  23:15  
The “power of positive thinking”

Jay Kim  23:16  
Yeah, positive thinking. Positive self talk. I'm just gonna will my… Well all of us listening would say actually, you should probably instead of doing that, just get a little more time on the court and practice shooting a basketball like that might help. And so it is with the life of following Jesus when he practice. So spiritual practices, spiritual disciplines, whatever you want to call them, integrating them into the daily rhythm of your life, not just when you are emotionally feeling it, but as an act of discipline. Like you know what, every single day for the next three months, I'm going to practice a spiritual practice of prayer. For me one thing that's been really helpful is it's an Ignatian spirituality sort of practice, the daily examen, which is to pray through a sort of journey of prayer of examining your day with the Lord every single day. And here's the reality, two thirds of the day, two thirds of the time at the end of the day, I'm so exhausted, I don't want to do it. But if I don't feel like going out and shooting 100 jump shots tomorrow and I don't Will I ever get better at shooting the jumper? No, I you have to have discipline to do it. And so it is what the spiritual life for me practicing the daily examen even on the days that I don't feel like it just being consistent. It has changed me. It's formed me and it's changed me. So those are my two suggestions. Acknowledge that willpower is not enough. Your own ability is not enough. Surrender to the Spirit of God and ask Him to change you and then participate with him by implementing consistently spiritual practices into your life.

Jon Steele  25:03  
That's fantastic. Which I think that last point in particular really feels like it ties us even back to what we were talking about joy of like, this is something that goes through the ups and the downs and the middle of the road. Joy is present in those places. And just like that, is the need to keep going keep trying keep practicing. When you feel like it when you don't feel like it and when you're just kind of met. Like that's those sort of walk side by side of strengthening those same muscles of recognizing like, this is always here. I need to keep leaning into it even when I don't feel like it. That's right. Yeah. I love that those two are so closely related in that way. Jay, just really quickly as we wrap up, do you have any future projects that are coming up here that people can kind of watch out for that they can follow you in some ways? Here we are talking about social media indulgence? I'm asking if there's ways people can follow you. Maybe your answers just needs to be No, but do you have anything else that's coming up in the near future?

Jay Kim  26:01  
Yeah, well, one thing I mean several things, I have my next book coming out in 2024. In the spring, it's called Listen, listen, speak, hearing God and being heard in a noisy world. So I hope that that's helpful for folks. I actually connected to InterVarsity. We are working on a podcast together. That sort of gets at some of this. It's going to be called the Digital Examen. And about sort of, again, carving out practices and time and space to hear the voice of God in a noisy world by implementing practices of listening into our lives. So that's going to be a lot of fun. We're gonna be talking to a lot of wonderful men and women who I think will have very helpful things to say about that. So those are just a couple of things I'm working on. 

Jon Steele  26:50  
We will help keep our guests apprised as those things happen. Jay, thank you so much. It goes without saying that this is incredibly timely as I think about recent grads, potentially moving to unfamiliar places where they don't really know anyone they haven't established their healthy rhythms yet, but it would be so easy to slip into reckless indulgence unhealthy comparison or any of the other topics that you discussed in your book, self centric despair, impatience like it just feels like fertile soil for those kinds of things to happen. And so I think that your book offers like some really necessary corrective measures for places that that has started to seep in, but also ways to thwart unhealth by pursuing health in the Holy Spirit, which I just really love that that is not just pop psychology, what's healthy, it's not just what our culture is saying is healthy and do this and you'll feel better do better, but that it's what scripture has told us from the beginning, and that's cultivating the fruit of the Spirit and I think that's an invaluable gift. Thank you for writing this book. Thank you for taking time out of your normal life and work rhythms to be here and for investing in our young alumni who are experiencing significant transition. Thanks so much, Jay.

Jay Kim  28:05  
Gosh, you're very welcome, Jon. Yeah, it was it was a lot of fun talking thanks for having me.

Musical Interlude

Wrap up

Jon Steele  28:12  
Okay, jays provided two very simple tools to help cultivate joy and self control while also combating comparison and reckless indulgence. The first is practicing thankfulness. Stop throughout the day, quiet yourself. Slowly breathe in and out and simply thank God for something that he's blessed you with. Whether it's a great moment or a terrible moment, put this into practice, and remind yourself that God is present and he is good. The second practice is multifaceted. First, regularly confess to God and remind yourself that your willpower is not enough to prevent reckless indulgence This isn't to bring shame, it's to remove the unnecessary and impossible burden of getting it right ourselves every single time. Second, very simply ask God to change you to transform you to renew your mind. Give yourself over to the power of the Holy Spirit in your life and surrender to God's timing. Finally, practice don't just eliminate unhealthy habits because something else will take their place. Practice healthy habits, Jay recommends a daily examen as a healthy practice of confession and surrender. If you'd like help implementing an exam and check out the show notes, we made an examen guide for you that you could use on a daily basis by way of encouragement as you put these things into practice. In the introduction to analog Christian Jay talks about the challenges of discipline and consistent implementation of a new healthy practice. He tells the story about his daughter watering a seed and her frustration as it took so much longer than expected for that seed to sprout and show itself above the dirt. She was not prepared for what Jay called the inequity of rhythms and results. She watered but she didn't see immediate results. Jay says the same is true for cultivating the fruit of the Spirit. He says, “it will not happen overnight, or several nights or months or even years. It will be a lifelong journey of watering, tilling the soil, offering sunlight and waiting. But for all who longed for a life of contentment, resilience and wisdom. It is a journey well worth taking.” alumni take heart that as you implement these practices, it will take longer than you expect to experience change. It's not you. You're not doing it wrong and God's not ignoring you. It's just the reality of the process of being transformed. Be encouraged in the knowledge that God is close, nothing can change. That and in the presence of God there is fullness of joy. Jay, thank you so much for joining us these last two weeks. We needed this teaching and we are better equipped for cultivating contentment, resilience and wisdom thanks to you. If you'd like a copy of Jay’s book Analog Christian, check out the show notes for a link to the book on IVP’s website. You can also find a link to our daily examen tool and then stay tuned for some great bonus content over the next few weeks. Enjoy some previously unheard moments with recent guests and then we will be back with our last eight episodes of the year starting October 10. If you're not already doing it, now's a great time to subscribe so you don't miss any of those things. Thanks for tuning in. And I will see you in the after, alumni.

Podcast Outro – (Upbeat acoustic guitar music)

Hey, thanks so much for joining us today, Alumni. If there was anything that you learned, really enjoyed, or that encouraged you from today's episode, would you send us a DM or tag us in a story? We'd love to hear about it. You can find us @afterivpod on Instagram and Facebook. And if you haven't already, take just a second to unlock your phone and subscribe to the podcast. If your platform lets you, leave us a rating and a review. And if you like what we're doing here, share us with your InterVarsity or other post-graduation friends. Thanks again for listening. And I will see you in the after, Alumni.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai