After IV
Why the Annunciation?: #LifeGoals by Mary
 
Podcast Intro – (Upbeat acoustic guitar music)

Jon Steele  0:09  
Hey, everyone. I'm Jon Steele. And this is After IV, a podcast for InterVarsity alumni life after college is hard. And even a great experience with your University chapter doesn't shield you from the challenges of transition. As we hear stories from real alumni learning how to make it in their posts InterVarsity reality. My hope is that this podcast will offer some encouragement, a few laughs and even some hope for the future. This is After IV. And these are your stories. 

Welcome
 
Jon Steele
Hello, alumni and welcome to After IV, the podcast that's just for you. I'm your host, Jon Steele. And as always, it is so great being together for another episode. And if it's your first time joining us, welcome to the podcast. So excited that you're here. Hey, before we jump in, just a quick reminder that next week will be our last episode before we take a short two week break, then we'll have another run of 10 episodes coming your way. So when you get to April 4, and you don't have a brand spankin new episode in your queue. Don't be sad, because we'll be back on the 18th. Okay, as you may remember, we've made a few pitstops in our weekly alumni conversations over the last year to dig into parts of the church calendar. We've gotten to connect a number of times with Jason Gaboury as he's helped us gain a better understanding for why we observe the days that we do things like Lent and Holy Week. It's been really helpful. I know many of you have learned a lot from those conversations. And I know that I certainly have as well. But you may also remember that last December in addition to Jason joining us to talk about Advent, we had Bette Dickinson alumna former IV staff and author join us on the podcast to share about her book making room in Advent as a resource for our own Advent rhythms. Well, Bette is joining us again this week for our next stop on the church calendar as we talk about the Annunciation, the moment in the gospels when the angel Gabriel visits Mary and gives her the news that she is highly favored and has been chosen to carry the long awaited Messiah. Now I'm making an assumption here, so feel free to let me know if I'm wrong. But I'm guessing that there aren't as many of us in the After IV community who are as familiar with the Annunciation as we are with things like lent Holy Week or Advent. I would also venture a guess that like me, some of us didn't even know that the Annunciation was observed as part of the church calendar. Well, this is exactly why we're talking about it. I think it's an often overlooked moment, both in church rhythms and in the pulpit. So that has significant meaning. And Bette is going to help us dig into that a little bit today. So let's go ahead and jump in. Here's Bette. And this one's for you alumni. 

Musical Interlude
 
Interview

Jon Steele
Hello, Bette. Welcome back.

Bette Dickinson  2:46  
Oh, well, thank you. It's good to be back.

Jon Steele  2:49  
Yes, I'm so glad this worked out for us to be able to do again. We just had so much fun last December, I thought, hey, why not touch base again?

Bette Dickinson  2:56  
Yeah, I love it. Thanks for having me. 

Jon Steele  2:59  
Of course, of course! So our previous episode, making ramen Advents people can go back and check that to hear more in depth introduction to who you are. But just really briefly, for people this is their first time or just a quick refresher, tell us just a little bit about who you are, Bette.

Bette Dickinson  3:14  
Yeah, so I am an artist, writer, speaker. I think I said this last time, but the things that I enjoy the most are, you know, contemplation, creation, communication. And I added this fourth one recently collaboration, which Yeah, yeah. So that's what I feel passionate about. I used to be on a university staff and was very involved in university when I was a student. So really love the ministry of diversity. And so it's really fun to be able to be here and to share the space with you and also to serve University alumni through this time.

Jon Steele  3:52  
Yes. Well, we are excited to have you back. Now, Bette, I happen to know that you're a Marvel fan. And I happen to know that because you told me but but I'd like to know just you know, keep getting to know Bette a little bit here. What is one of your favorite Marvel moments?

Bette Dickinson  4:11  
Yeah. Well, I was glad you know, you sent me this question ahead of time, because it's like, how do I pick one, the one that actually came to the surface as I was thinking about it was actually a scene from the first Black Panther movie where King Shala has just defeated killmonger He's dying. And you know, killmonger talks to him about how his daddy's to tell him of how beautiful Wakanda was getting to Charla then, as he's dying, takes him and carries him over to see the sunset over Wakanda and just places him in the path of beauty. And maybe it's because I'm a beauty chaser and I just love what beauty does, which two people saw but it's just seemed like a really sacred exchange. It seemed like a shift happened in both of them in the sense that care Mongar was able to see what he couldn't see before where his eyes had been kind of clouded by vengeance and violence, to see a beauty beyond that, and the beauty of what what kind of already is and could be. And there was something about that beauty that that healed him and spoke to something really sacred within his soul and his heritage. But then also, it was a turning point, I think, for King to challah in the sense that he, through that moment was able to have an awakening himself to see the truth of where there had been injustice where things needed to change. And out of that scene, after killmonger dies, he takes it upon himself to make a change. I don't know, there was just something really precious, I think about that particular scene that shifted, the narrative shifted the characters, and it was in the presence of beauty. And so I love that.

Jon Steele  5:50  
And even a picture of us and Jesus, that we were at odds. And here, King challah carries his enemy over to experience this beauty and almost this reconciliation sort of moment. And I'll say, that was a much deeper answer than I anticipated, but I should have known coming from a contemplative creative like you, I love it. That's great. So Bette, as you know, on this podcast over the last year, we've been taking some time to investigate different moments from the Christian calendar, Lent Holy Week, you joined us to do further investigation and demystifying with advent with making room and Advent as we talked about your book, but there's another place of overlap between your book and the calendar. And that's a celebration of the Annunciation. I think that you have a lot of experience in this space, your study and your preparation for this book for myself, and for others who didn't grow up in a church context where we celebrated some of these different parts of the calendar, or if it's just been a while since we've been in that context. Could you just give us a really quick overview? What is the Annunciation? Are there any common practices or disciplines or things like that, that come along with it in the sectors of the church that do celebrate it more consistently?

Bette Dickinson  7:01  
Yes, so I will admit, I didn't grow up and you know, a Catholic or orthodox Anglican, our Lutheran tradition, which is typically where they celebrate the Feast of the Annunciation. But as I've grown to learn about it, I've also grown to love it. So typically, it's celebrated on March 25, which is nine months before Christmas. And it's celebrating the moment when the angel Gabriel comes to Mary says that she is highly favored, and gives her the invitation to partner with God to bear the Messiah. It's really interesting where it's set on the year as well, because the Christian tradition believes that March 25, was also the day that Jesus died. So there's sort of this interesting overlap and parallel between the death of Christ as the beginning of the new creation, as well as the conception of Christ, which I just find so mysteriously beautiful, how those things overlap. When you think of the Annunciation, I see it as two worlds merging together, right. It's the eternal world and the material world or the infinite in the finite, the divine and the human. And also, that moment in Christ's death, where the curtain is separated, where those two worlds come together is also what happens in his death. Also really interesting to me that around March 25, is where we have the spring equinox, the arrival of spring. And so then if you think about all of the beautiful imagery and metaphor that comes there of things, awakening things beginning to birth into life, where the earth is shifted more towards the sun, and you begin to see things starting to flourish, and come above ground, all of these images layered together provide a beautifully profound sacred time to take in that I think, in my tradition, and even a Jellicle tradition, or, you know, other Christian churches I've been a part of, we often just missed that.

Jon Steele  8:56  
That is so fascinating, before we even get into the meat of what we're talking about the scene that you have set already just has me excited for what this is about. So this is fantastic. Just like you I didn't grow up in a context where we celebrated this. It wasn't until very recently that I was like, Oh, this is a thing. And we should talk about this because this is pretty cool. I did grow up in a context that recognized Mary, it sounds silly to even say it this way, or recognize Mary as part of the birth narrative, obviously. But in all honesty, that's almost where the recognition stops, marry the mother of Jesus. That's title, chapter name and only sentence in the book. Oftentimes, it feels like for Mary, right, that she was just a character in the story. So I think it's really easy for me and I will assume for many other people just to kind of gloss over why this is such a big deal. So from your years of studying and experience that have gone into this, someone who has carried children in as a minister of the gospel, I think you bring a special authority and experience because of all of these things. I wonder what can you tell us about the cultural and the spiritual significance of Mary's role in the story? Why is the Annunciation and Mary's role a big deal?

Bette Dickinson  10:13  
Yeah, well, and I think with you, I've been in a similar space where Mary sometimes feels like an afterthought for Christmas. And I wonder if it's just with us evangelicals were really afraid of, you know, I think maybe we've swung the pendulum in the opposite direction. We're afraid of worshiping Mary, we don't want to, you know, associate with Mary in ways that get us into trouble theologically or anything. But I think the way that she is centered in the story uplifts the role of what she is and what she has done as a woman, and a lot of the commentaries in different places that I studied this passage and Luke of the Annunciation, a lot of the commentators agree that Mary is considered the first disciple, wow, because she was the first one to say yes, that she literally embodied Jesus and bore him in the world, she and how she does, this shows us the way God wants to birth, something new in the world, through us through our unique design, through our DNA through everything that makes us who we are. And so we can follow her example of what that looks like, have this kind of surrender this openness, also to risk and vulnerability. I mean, culturally, I think two really striking things is one, the fact that God would choose her a marginalized, a woman at the very far reaches and stretches of influence in that day that he would choose her is an example that God reveals Himself through the lowly through those who are pushed to the margins, and centers those on the margins in the story. But also, the fact that she was this virgin woman engaged, you know, puts her at risk of death, she could have been stoned for people not believing her. And there needs to come a moment, I think, within all of us, where we may have received a call from God or an invitation to partner with him in some way that is risky. And when we're trying to explain it to other people, it doesn't make a ton of sense. And yet we have to trust and have that kind of obedience like Mary that says, whatever may come from saying yes to this call, I'm going to stay faithful, and I'm going to care for and protect and to nurture and grow and make space for this thing growing within me and trust that, whenever that type of fruition comes that the world will see.

Jon Steele  12:33  
One of the things that standing out to me, as you're sharing is Mary's humble posture in the midst of this, she doesn't come out of this, like fist pump. Yes, I get to carry the Messiah. Is this quiet submission to God's will? And I do just wonder, like, are all of those things going through Mary's mind in that moment of like, any social status that I have right now, which is basically none will be wiped away? I'm in big trouble once people find out what's happening here. But that from me, it was this like, okay, may Your will be done, I will follow where you lead. And to say like, gosh, there probably needs to be a little bit more of that self examination that happens for me when I reflect on what it means just for me to be a follower of Jesus, that it is a whole life whole body embodiment of saying yes.

Bette Dickinson  13:19  
Right. Yes. You know, I think I said this and the last time that we talked, but just for me personally, finding out that I was pregnant with my son, when I was working on the painting of the Annunciation, at the same time helped me to understand on a more truly embodied in deeper level, what it means that this is an all encompassing thing, you know that this impacts every sphere of my life, that I also need to be paying attention to ways I need to protect this call, ways I need to care for this life that's growing within me. I just wonder even for listeners hear just the pull towards being seen, or the pull towards producing something that can be appreciated or understood right away is such a huge poll. I think in our culture, you've got to have something to show for it now that we have a hard time letting things ripen slowly, and trusting that they may be hidden for a long time before it's ready to be seen before it's ready to be shared with the world. And I think that there are truths like that there are words like that, that often God gives us that need to ripen slowly for them to be ready,

Jon Steele  14:28  
Bette, you're just speaking very encouraging words to me right now. I'm really grateful for this. So I think you're already starting to steer us in some really helpful ways. So as we continue to grow, and what our understanding is of why this is important. Why this was a costly ask, where do we find ourselves? We started to talk about that a little bit, but how should this influence the way that we interact with God? And does this also have an influence on the way that we interact with the people around us?

Bette Dickinson  14:57  
You know, one thing that strikes me first says, I think we need to cultivate a spiritual attentiveness and awareness to pay attention to annunciation moments when they happen. And that they may often happen when we least expect them. You know, it may not be the angel Gabriel showing up in our living room, but it may be a phone call from a friend, or an invitation to an opportunity that we never would have imagined, you know, or maybe a creative idea. What does God want to give birth to in in through your life? That is a unique expression of His divine love, and a unique expression of your unique design? And how does he want to incarnate into the world through you? What will it cost you to say yes, both in your body physically, you know, but also, like marry in any kind of cultural stigma or shame that may happen as a result of you saying, yes, or people who will reject you, or whatever may come. And so I think there's also sort of this invitation to trust the inner voice of God, even when there's no visible sign to communicate or express it. And I think that requires some contemplation, it requires us getting away in silence and solitude to hear from God. Part of me wonders if this is a passage, and I'm curious for you, John, like thinking about her as a woman or pregnancy, I feel sometimes from men this hesitancy to even like just skirt around it, because they can't quite fully understand it, you know, and I appreciate you being willing to dive right in. But I do think that there is something to be said, about learning from women in our lives and learning from mothers about what it means to wait and allow something to be cultivated within you and to make space for it and to sacrifice for it. And I think that we have visible signs of marry all around us in that way. And so paying attention to even what we're learning from women can I think help us enter into the story in that way, too.

Jon Steele  16:55  
This is actually something that came up for me when my wife, Kaitlynn was pregnant with our second daughter, as I think about the parallels of pregnancy, motherhood carrying a child. And the way that that illustrates following Jesus is that, you know, there are a few moments in my life where I have ever had to, like, be 100%, at all times committed to something, there are spaces where I can pull back, or I can, like, I've got my happy face on, but I'm totally not into this right now. But you know, on the surface, I'm there inside, I'm on vacation somewhere and carrying another human, you are committed, whether or not you want to be there, you are there. And you are not the same person. After that you were before, like you have changed, even just physically, like you are physically different because of this commitment that you have made. And I thought about my wife as she was carrying the second child of like you are a superhero, because you have sacrificed yourself in a way that I don't understand. That paints a picture of following Jesus in a way of like, what's my version of that? And even if I can't find one, how do I learn from this example? What does it look like for me to live my life with Jesus, like a mother carries a child?

Bette Dickinson  18:15  
Wow, I love that Jon, and I love your posture and perspective on that,

Jon Steele  18:19  
Well, you have to ask my wife if in practice that actually happens. 

Bette Dickinson  18:23  
This is true. Well, in full transparency, too, there have definitely been moments in pregnancy where I was not fully all into it. And the mysterious thing about it right is I can be thinking about something else entirely. But the work is still going on. And I think that that's the great mystery of our faith as well. And how God forms us is it's not something we control. It's not something that we force to happen or manufacture. It is just yielding ourselves and letting God be the one to form and to do the work. And when you had asked how does this impact the way we interact with others, you know, I think about Mary needing and Elizabeth and her life who saw her and who saw the work that God was doing within her and called it forth, and how if we're in a season where God is doing something new in us, and maybe a lot of the world doesn't quite understand it or see it to find those who have gone before us in this particular area, or to find those with spiritual perception to see the thing that God is doing in us and to be sure that we're getting ourselves around those that continue to encourage this thing and to not be afraid and those that we can have community and communion with. And I love that God provides Elizabeth in that way that she's not alone. But this is something that we do in community. And likewise, you know, when we are in Elizabeth, looking for Mary's to come alongside and to call those guests out to call the thing that is unseen out in people and to encourage them, it's just very, very essential. And one of the things that we can really take away from this story with Mary is how can you know this whole experience was that it was not an isolated thing that Mary had to do on her own, but was something that she shared in community with others so beautiful.

Jon Steele  20:07  
When Mary goes to visit Elizabeth, it does make me wonder, is there a healthy way to both withdraw and engage communally to shield you from the people that are going to divert you from the calling that the Lord has placed on your life, but drawing nearer to the ones who are going to help shape you and prepare you as you're waiting for this thing to come about? So Bette, we've gotten to hear some of your study some of your personal experience in these ways. But also want to recognize such a huge part was also these artistic pieces that you created. But there's one in particular, that stands out to me, it's on the cover of the book. And if I'm being honest, it's the one that I wish I had a copy of did hang on my wall. So I would love to just have some space to talk about that too. Can we talk just a little bit about that painting?

Bette Dickinson  20:54  
Absolutely. The painting itself was called the Annunciation. And I do sell it on my shop, Jon. So if you want to get a print, you can get it.

Jon Steele  21:03  
That's good to know, I like the sound of that. 

Bette Dickinson  21:06  
The image is the angel Gabriel appears to Mary. And he's got his hand kind of gently outstretched towards her sort of this blessing to receive it. And she has her head tilted down to receive this thing. And one of the things that I wanted to depict, I think, in all of the scenes in making Roman Advent, but especially this one was the intersection between the Divine Presence of God and the human. And so this light is portrayed through the scene both in the angel but as well, this hovering light over Mary that then intersects almost like roots or lightning into her being, and down deep, like woven all the way down into the roots of the painting of the stump of the Tree of Jesse is intersecting between the brown of the human and humanity and the light of God, and how those things woven together then create this incarnation moment. And I just, I love creating things like that, because I think in a lot of ways, that's the role of artists is trying to help people to see where the eternal intersects with the finite or human. And I think that there's always these kinds of invitation moments for those to come together and to also have these kinds of thin places in our lives where we see them more clearly, you know, these annunciation moments. That's what I was hoping to convey there.

Jon Steele  22:34  
We talked about this a little bit, the ways that color communicate these things in your painting, I hadn't even put that together the brown of the stump this fleshy color, and eternal and temporal coming together in that way. And once again, Mary's posture bowing forward, just like I don't understand how this is possible. But if you say it is then okay, just brave on assuming that's just captured in such a fantastic way. It's a powerful piece for sure. 

Bette Dickinson  23:05  
Well, it's my favorite as well. 

Jon Steele  23:06  
Well, that's good. It makes sense then that that's what made it on the cover.

Bette Dickinson  23:10  
Well, yeah, I mean, it again, has a lot of personal significance. Since while I was working at it, I found out I was pregnant with my son. 

Jon Steele  23:17  
So Bette, I think that the journey that you've been on over the last few years, all of the creating and the contemplating and the preparation that you've done for this book, the life that you've lived in the midst of this, you know, finding out that you're pregnant in the midst of of creating some of these pieces, I do think it gives you a special understanding of and relationship with Mary. So as you think about our alumni engaging with this part of Scripture, you know whether or not they're celebrating it as a part of the Christian calendar, but as they think about the way that this paints their understanding of Jesus coming into the world, do you have one last piece of advice that you would give to alumni,

Bette Dickinson  23:55  
I mean, I think to live like Mary, and to in essence, pay attention to what kind of like I said earlier, annunciation moments, perhaps God is coming with an invitation to you and what is he slowly ripening in you, and knowing that it will flow out of loving union with Him and being willing to cultivate the space to let it grow, and to let it grow out of your relationship with God in a way that is fully him and fully you and fully an expression of His indwelling presence in such an intimate way in your life that it actually creates and birth something new in you. The more we can pay attention to those new things God is doing in us and to make space for them and to allow them to ripen and to protect them, the more we will see infinitely beautiful dreams birthed in the world through people. And I think we need more of the world to just own themselves and own their call and own what it means to be an expression of the Incarnation in the world. That is told really different than the next person. And so only you know what that is. And so making space to hear it from God is my invitation to you.

Jon Steele  25:07  
That's really great. And I love that imagery of this fully human, fully God, these things interacting together to bring about the kingdom, and that we get to experience that in some way in the things that God has invited us has called us into. gash, Bette, thank you so much for investing even more time in the podcast, and in our alumni. Thank you for just bringing your experiences and bringing your voice and the way that you see following Jesus and saying yes, and living into these annunciation moments. Thank you so much for bringing that with you and teaching us this has been super fun to get to talk again.

Bette Dickinson  25:46  
Yeah, thank you, Jon. Thank you.

Musical Interlude
 
Wrap up
 
Jon Steele  25:51  
I'm really grateful for this conversation with Bette. Mary feels like a person God purposefully chose to carry out such a significant part of his plan in the world. And yet, she's often overlooked, her story feels minimized. And I'm not saying that we need to put Mary in a place where she doesn't belong, a place where only God belongs. I do think, however, that we miss such an amazing example of whole life discipleship and commitment to God when we gloss over her story. When Mary responded to Gabriel's news with I am the LORD servant made your word to me be fulfilled. She showed us a posture of complete surrender of self, her social standing her body, her life trajectory, they were not her own. And this didn't come out of her abundance, either. She was a person with no social standing or financial safety net to lean on. God centers the story of Jesus birth on a woman from the margins. And yet, even in her lack, she gave everything to serve God and His purposes in the world. And I think this serves as an invitation for us alumni that is both encouraging and serious, encouraging in that many of us, especially in our life, right after graduation feel like a small fish in a really big ocean. We don't know where we're going or how to get there. And we may feel like we don't have a lot to offer. But be assured the Lord is birthing something in you. He's inviting you into His plan for His kingdom for your life and the lives of those around you. What would it look like for you to quietly listen for annunciation moments in your own life? How is the Lord inviting you to participate with him in a way that only you can? It's majorly encouraging to be invited into the Lord's plans. But this invitation is also serious. The way God's inviting you to participate isn't on your own terms. Yes, it recognizes the way that you are uniquely you, but it demands a whole life submission to the way God wants it done. Mary didn't get to opt for an alternate approach, participating meant participating on God's terms. And I think that's something we need to take under serious advisement as we consider the invitations God gives to us, are you, am I, are we, After IV community, prepared to surrender completely to the way God invites us to participate through these annunciation moments, something to think about. Bette, thank you again for joining us for another episode. It was so fun getting to chat with you again and to continue learning from you as you invite us to consider our own annunciation moments. If you want a copy of Bette’s book making room and Advent which I highly recommend, you can get a copy from IVP. Just make sure you use your alumni discount. Also. Come on back next week for our last episode. Before we take a short two week break. We're going to be chatting with Betsy, a Purdue alumna who works for a Disney yes Disney will get to hear about some of her experience is working for Disney attending a church that does Disney oriented ministry. Super cool. And Betsy also has some fantastic perspectives on thriving post graduation. I'm looking forward to seeing you next week for that conversation. 

Podcast Outro – (Upbeat acoustic guitar music)

Hey, thanks so much for joining us today. Alumni. If there was anything that you learned really enjoyed, or they encouraged you from today's episode, would you send us a DM or tag us in a story? We'd love to hear about it. You can find us @afterivpod on Instagram and Facebook. And if you haven't already, take just a second to unlock your phone and subscribe to the podcast. If your platform lets you leave us a rating and a review. And if you like what we're doing here, share us with your InterVarsity or other post graduation friends. Thanks again for listening. And I will see you in the after, alumni.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai