Jon Steele: 00:00

Hey, InterVarsity alumni. This is After IV, your podcast for navigating life after graduation. This is both an exciting and potentially tricky transition that you're making, and you might feel a little unsure about the coming weeks months. We're here to provide you with expert advice, practical skills, and plenty of encouragement as you learn how to keep saying yes to Jesus in your new context. This is After IV, and this podcast is for you, alumni.

Jon Steele: 00:32

What's up, alumni? Welcome to After IV, your podcast for navigating life after graduation. I'm your host and guide, Jon Steele. Alumni, we are wrapping up our series on navigating conflict today. We've got a great conversation for you about the hope and humility that comes along with being a disciple first no matter the issue that we're tackling.

Jon Steele: 00:53

But first, it's been a few weeks. Let's enjoy another alumni yearbook entry. This week's entry comes from Frannie Huck from the class of 2000 out of Milliken University. And Frannie says: "Congratulations on your graduation. Many of you may not know what your next step will be.

Jon Steele: 01:10

Be assured that God knows and he will direct your steps. I remember feeling anxious and desperately praying about graduating. I was pleading for a job, any job. God encouraged me to dream big and pray specifically. He answered my prayers in amazing ways.

Jon Steele: 01:27

Even if God isn't seeming to answer your prayers or giving you your dream job, he is present with you in whatever you're feeling or experiencing right now. Trust that he has your best interests in mind, and he will lead you where you need to go. May you continue trusting in our faithful God along all the twists and turns of life." Alumni, this sounds like a real life translation or exposition of Proverbs 3:5-6, to trust that God is guiding your steps even when the pace, purpose, and direction just don't seem clear at all. And I would imagine that Frannie has some amazing stories of this reality after 24 years of following Jesus after graduation.

Jon Steele: 02:05

Thank you so much, Frannie.

Jon Steele: 02:06

Alright. As I mentioned before, we are wrapping up our series on navigating conflict today, and we're doing that with Curtis Chang, former InterVarsity staff, host of the extremely popular Good Faith Podcast, and founder of Redeeming Babel, an organization dedicated to helping Christians better engage with the broader world and the host of challenging conversations that come along with it. One of those challenging conversations that he and others have sought to engage with as of late is the intersection of faith and politics and what it looks like to radically recenter on Jesus. Curtis is joining us today to share about what it means to be a disciple first and foremost, and how that provides us with the hope and humility that we need to engage with people on any number of challenging topics, political or otherwise.

Jon Steele: 02:50

It's a perfect way to wrap up this series together. So let's get to it. Here's Curtis, and this one's for you, alumni.

Jon Steele: 02:59

Curtis, welcome to the podcast.

Curtis Chang: 03:01

Oh, it's great to be back, and continue the conversation.

Jon Steele: 03:05

Yes. Excited to have you with us. You joined us for an episode of our World Changers podcast. Curtis, would you just give us a little bit of an introduction and help our audience get to know you a bit?

Curtis Chang: 03:15

Sure. So I was InterVarsity, as a student at Harvard in the nineties, or late eighties, nineties. Graduated, went on staff with InterVarsity, first in campus as a campus minister at Harvard, then Tufts. Then was an area director in Boston, for a number of years, then left to become a pastor of a church in California. Then from there, went on to start my own consulting firm.

Curtis Chang: 03:42

I left it, left pastoral ministry, started my own consulting firm, which I still run, that serves nonprofits and government agencies. And then about 5 years ago, 4 or 5 years ago, started a nonprofit called Redeeming Babel, which is trying to help Christians navigate the secular world and help them make sense of the broader world. And we produce content on that really on the topics of the inner life around anxiety, on our organizational life around how we interact with our secular institutions in our lives, and then in our political role as well. So anxiety, institutions, and politics. Anxiety, organizational life, and politics are a big three theme.

Curtis Chang: 04:27

And I've written a couple of books, one on anxiety, one on politics. I'm gonna write a book next year on institutions.

Jon Steele: 04:34

Okay.

Curtis Chang: 04:35

So, yeah, so I'm basically ADHD in terms of career focus. And so for any of your listeners who are thinking, I don't know what I wanna do with my life, my message is don't worry. You're going to be doing a lot of things in your life most likely. And it's an interesting kind of way it's an interesting way to live.

Jon Steele: 04:52

Yes. Absolutely. And you and you map out some of that journey for us in more detail on our previous conversation on World Changers. I encourage people if you feel sort of lost in where am I going? Curtis does lay that out really nicely of a meandering path isn't necessarily a lost path.

Jon Steele: 05:09

There are all of these experiences that sort of inform each other and that many of those things that seemed maybe totally unrelated have sort of brought you to the place that you are today, of developing the the helpful tools and resources that you are.

Curtis Chang: 05:23

Hey. I'm, reading for the, I think, fifth time, sixth time, Lord of the Rings, Tolkien. And for any listeners out there who are fans, just remember Aragorn. All who wander are not lost. So.

Jon Steele: 05:37

Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. And the the Lord of the Rings would be a pretty boring book without all of the journeying and

Curtis Chang: 05:45

That's right.

Jon Steele: 05:45

And wandering that happens there. Well, Curtis, you're joining us right at the end of a series where we are talking about conflict and wanting to help our alumni and other listeners navigate conflict in a healthy way.

Jon Steele: 05:58

Because let's be honest, conflict is, I mean, it's certainly avoidable, but it is inevitable. That's the word I'm looking for. Conflict is inevitable, and we need to be able to navigate it well. Our world the world around us does not give us healthy examples oftentimes of how to navigate that well. And some of the work that you're doing with The After Party in particular, is related to the the political world, the political realm, and I'm hoping we can dive into that a little bit today.

Jon Steele: 06:28

But I think that there's some broader categories that you step into with The After Party that can help inform some of the conversation we're having around conflict more broadly. And, like I said, we're wrapping up this series with this conversation. We've had a lot of heavy topics that require clearly require a lot of internal work. It's not just about those people out there, And how do I deal with those people who think differently from me? And so I would like for us to end the series on, centered on Jesus leaning into hope.

Jon Steele: 07:00

And I know that there's I know that there's a good deal of content in The After Party that I think can help take us to some of those places. And in The After Party, you talk about different identities. And so I'd like to spend time talking about one in particular, and that's the identity of the disciple. And so I'm wondering when it comes to forming or holding a particular stance or an idea, whether it's political or otherwise, what what does it mean? What have you learned about what it means to approach that and to hold that stance as a disciple?

Curtis Chang: 07:32

Yeah. Well, I think it's really helpful to get at just, like, to remember what is the essence, definitionally of the term disciple. Right, what a disciple means in its essence is learner. I'm a learner. That's what it means to be a disciple.

Curtis Chang: 07:54

Right? And so automatically, that means there's two qualities that ought to characterize any disciple. Let's not even say disciple of Jesus. Just say disciple. Okay?

Jon Steele: 08:06

Yeah.

Curtis Chang: 08:07

And what is humility? And that's because a disciple by you saying, I am a learner, you are also saying, I don't know everything. Right? I need to learn.

Jon Steele: 08:17

Yes.

Curtis Chang: 08:18

And so that is fundamentally a posture of humility. So every disciple, if you are a true disciple, is characterized by humility. The other attribute is hope.

Jon Steele: 08:30

Okay.

Curtis Chang: 08:30

Because if you are saying I'm a learner, I'm a disciple, it means, oh, I can learn.

Curtis Chang: 08:35

There is a way to learn. I don't have to just give up and say, who can say, who can know, what is truth, this is all too hard. Right? That's not the posture of a disciple. It is possible to learn.

Curtis Chang: 08:47

That's why I'm a disciple. And, in fact, the disciple has said, I'm especially hopeful because I have found the rabbi. I have found the teacher who can actually teach me and so forth. So, the disciple is characterized also by hope. Humility and hope are essential characteristics of any disciple.

Curtis Chang: 09:09

Therefore, if we are a disciple of Jesus, it means we direct our humility and hope towards Jesus. We are directing our humility towards Jesus. We're saying, Jesus, I don't know everything, and so, therefore, I am submitting myself to your leadership and your instruction that is going to take time. I'm not gonna get all the answers all at once. I know, but I'm I'm bringing myself under the yoke of the Messiah, the yoke of the rabbi.

Curtis Chang: 09:35

That is that's the biblical, original biblical definition of a disciple. Right? And you're saying, you know what? If I stick it out with this rabbi, it's I should be hopeful. Like, I and then which means and I gotta have that hope because it doesn't mean I'm gonna get all my answers answered right now in this media.

Curtis Chang: 09:53

That's not how a disciple, master, rabbi relationship works. It's not like this will just download for me everything. It requires hope to say, I've got [it], if I stick it out with you, my answers, my puzzlement, my struggles will get answered eventually in the long run. Right? So I'm going to have hope in this teacher, Jesus.

Curtis Chang: 10:14

And so this is why The After Party curriculum is directed towards politics in which we're trying to get people to move towards being a disciple and centering our identity as disciples versus our partisan identities. It really is calling people to anchor on these traits of humility and hope.

Jon Steele: 10:33

Yeah. So even as you're talking there, it feels like some of the some of the things that we need to be prepared for then as we develop as we lean into discipleship with Jesus specifically, is you said you know in time. In time I will learn, I will understand, I will see better these things because I'm sticking it out with Jesus. So it seems to me then that even as disciples of Jesus, the one with all the answers, that there are gonna be times that we have to be okay not having those answers, and just sitting and waiting. So are there things that we learn from disciples about what it looks like to be obedient for a long time and to sit and listen for a long time as we wait for those things?

Curtis Chang: 11:18

Yeah. You know, one of the one of the things I think is that it actually makes us a lot more able to handle conflict with other people. Because we realize I right now, I see through a glass darkly, to use the Corinthians verses. I'm early. I'm not at the end where I'm supposed where I will see face to face, where I will get all my answers, right, from from Jesus as he returns to this world and resurrects me and restores all things and brings us to glory.

Curtis Chang: 11:50

So I'm not there yet. I'm headed there, and I can be hopeful that I'm headed there. But that means I don't see everything clearly and neither does everybody else. Right?

Jon Steele: 11:59

Right.

Curtis Chang: 12:00

So we're going to disagree because we're gonna see things differently. We do not have full access on the truth on any issue in our lives or in the world. And which doesn't mean you don't you give up on truth because that would be meaning you're going hopeless if you were to do that. But we're headed towards there. Right?

Curtis Chang: 12:17

We're not there, but we're headed towards there. That's a very different way of engaging in conflict than to say, I've arrived at the truth. You're not, you're not at the same place I am, and therefore, we're gonna we're in conflict now. Right? That's a very different way to handle conflict, to the you know, if you think you've arrived versus you're on a journey.

Curtis Chang: 12:39

And so that's the shift of posture.

Jon Steele: 12:42

Yeah. That's really interesting to me because it you know, when I hear following Jesus being a disciple of Jesus develops humility and hope, it makes me think, well, okay. My humility is that Jesus knows and I don't. So therefore, I sit as a humble disciple of Jesus, which is true, but also because of that humility and recognizing I don't know all of the answers that that, like, necessarily translates to the way that I to my posture towards other people. That I might find myself in conflict or indifference a difference of opinion with in saying like, I this is what I this is what I the the stance that I think I hold or that I have for now, but I'm open to the possibility that I am not seeing this clearly or all the angles.

Curtis Chang: 13:28

That's right. And, especially, especially, if you are in conflict with another disciple of Jesus, it really shapes how differently you are. You're like, hey. We're both trying to head in the same direction. We don't see everything the same way right now.

Curtis Chang: 13:43

Let's first put first things first. We're both disciples of Jesus. We're both trying to we're in conflict right now because we see things differently. That really changes how you work things out then. Right?

Curtis Chang: 13:54

And it makes you much more likely to say, okay. I think you're headed trying to head in the same direction. You want to go left. I want to go right, whether metaphorically or politically. And so maybe we ought to actually listen to each other because the other person may have an angle on reality and even an angle on what it means to follow Jesus that I need to listen to because I don't have a monopoly on that.

Jon Steele: 14:20

Right. Right. And then I mean and then that that does really lead us into this place of hope of, like, I to get even together, we do not have all the answers on we stand on both sides of this issue or whatever, but even collectively, we don't have all of the answers here, but we follow the one who does. And that so we have hope that we can wait. And that even if in this moment, I am left sort of scratching my head about this issue or I don't know how to, I'm learning how to engage with you when we think differently about this.

Jon Steele: 14:53

But I have great hope because the the one that I follow, the one that I am a disciple of is teaching me and is going to teach me how to engage with you and how to think about this topic even if I never come to full understanding of it that the one that I follow, my rabbi, does have full understanding, and I have hope.

Curtis Chang: 15:11

And this is why we were really in this political season as we're heading towards the election where, you know, your listeners are going to be, like, you know, going home for Thanksgiving and maybe intense interactions with family members. This is why we actually you know, I would encourage people to, get the book, "The After Party", or take go through the our online course on The After Party. You can find it online:

Curtis Chang: 15:36

after-party.org

Curtis Chang: 15:40

And see if that helps you because with the book that I co-wrote with Nancy French and also the with the courses, it's trying to shift people from the what of politics to the how of politics. Right? So the what of politics is I have the answer on the what of whatever, abortion, immigration, race, and so forth like that.

Curtis Chang: 16:02

And but the how of politics is how do I hold all those positions and how do I hold these positions that are different than you? How do we relate to one another? Right? And so much of politics has gotten reduced to a sense of, absolute confidence that I am right and you are wrong. I'm the what versus this how, which is, well, here's what I think right now, but I've got to hold it with some humility and some hope.

Curtis Chang: 16:31

And we got to relate to each other around humility and hope because we're disciples of Jesus. And we have to be more sure that hope and humility are the right attributes than we are sure that the what of our politics are correct. Right? We have more confidence that Jesus is calling us as disciples. There's more Bible verses that are clearly talking about Jesus calling his disciples to hope and humility than there are verses from Jesus that say, the right policy on immigration is x, y, or z, or Jesus is saying, the right policy on abortion is x, y, or z.

Curtis Chang: 17:07

I'm not saying you can't try to have discussions or conversations around abortion immigrations and try to say, I think Jesus might want us to more incline in this direction or that. But, man, that's a really you those you should hold those arguments with a lot of humility because you're going togonna be making a lot of moves, a lot of assumptions. Those are very fuzzy lines, and other people, including your family members or friends or whoever, are gonna draw those lines differently, and you're going to have to accept, you could be right. I mean, you know, I don't I have a monopoly on this, versus saying, hey, can we commit to having this conversation within these traits of hope and humility? We're gonna be humble with each other and we're going to be having this conversation with the spirit of hope, like hope in the world, hope within each other, because we do know we can draw a straight line from Jesus' teaching to those qualities of hope and humility.

Jon Steele: 17:58

Yes. Yes. Curtis, one of the things that comes to my mind as we're talking is that there's, like, there's a number of relationships that we're bringing up here that have a certain amount of maybe trust or history or common ground. How do we contextualize these things of hope and humility and a disciple of Jesus when we're stepping into conversations with people that maybe we we don't have that history with or we don't know if we have the common ground of being disciples of Jesus? Like, how do we hold these things well and let it inform talking to somebody that maybe thinks very differently on some on fundamental levels of even, like, following Jesus?

Jon Steele: 18:38

Like, how do we engage well with people in those situations?

Curtis Chang: 18:41

Yeah. That's a great question. I would say if we sort of distinguish between the what and the how. Right? The what being the substantive policy or political positions we hold versus the how of established values, traits, commitments, like hope and humility.

Curtis Chang: 18:56

I would invite people to actually prioritize the how over the what in terms of what you're trying to do in a conversation or a relationship with somebody you don't know well. You actually because a conversation around differing conflicting whats, if you don't have a common committment and trusting each other on the how is a very fraud exercise, right? It's a very immediately tense exercise if it's all about the what and you don't have anything shared on the how, right? Versus if you've got a lot of shared agreement on the how that we are going to do this in humility, in hope. We have a relationship where we share that together with we're committed to that too with each other.

Curtis Chang: 19:38

We're together committed to that under Jesus. Man, those kinds of relationships those kinds of relationships that I do have in my life, you know, with close friends, friends that sometimes that go all the way back to my college days, that had a history of trust in that in that a common how, those can hold a lot of differences, a lot of conflicts on the what if the how is actually secure. So my encouragement is if you're building a relationship with somebody or exploring your relationship with somebody, don't like, it's I would say more deprioritize the, do they think the same way I do on what's as the key thing you're trying to suss out. But really more like, can we build a common how? Can we get to can we find out what our common hows are?

Jon Steele: 20:24

Yeah. It sounds like the, an exercise in building relational capital that, you know, we need to continue developing trust together here. I get to know who you are more at your core, and what drives you as opposed to the stances that you take on things. And that we can draw from this growing common trust and, and enjoyment of one another as we, over time, step into maybe more challenging conversations together. But we don't need to prioritize just figuring out where we do and don't stand together on particular issues as we're developing a relationship.

Curtis Chang: 21:00

Right. Because because if we start with the what, then that automatically consigns us to only to relating to people who are like us on the what. It just consigns us to being in the echo chamber, in the bubble. Right? Because if safety, which, you know, is crucial in any relationship, we're human beings.

Curtis Chang: 21:19

We're wired to look for safety. Right? If safety is based only on a common what, then, yes, our initial conversations, we're looking for cues for who do they vote for, what's the how do they think about climate change, race, or what you know, whatever set of issues is our key whats that we care about. That's gonna be our definition of safety, which means we're only going to be around people who think the same way we do. And that's a very dangerous place to be in, both as a human being and also as a disciple, That if we are only surrounding with people who think the same way we do, psychologically, that actually makes us more wrong and also more extreme.

Curtis Chang: 21:59

Studies show this. It's called the law of in group polarization. That when you get people who together who all think the same thing, they actually get more wrong and more extreme.

Jon Steele: 22:08

Wow.

Curtis Chang: 22:09

As an echo chamber. Right? Look at it up, law of in group polarization. So that's as a, just as any human being, but especially as a disciple, right, Jesus called his disciples out of he created deliberately in his first twelve disciples people who had very different political views. Right?

Curtis Chang: 22:31

Simon, you know, Simon the Zealot, Matthew the tax collector. These are two those are the extreme divisions of first century ancient Israel politics. And then you go out to the ways in which the spirit of Jesus created the first church. Right? Neither Greek nor Jews, you know, free or slave.

Curtis Chang: 22:49

That's built into the DNA of the Jesus community is difference.

Jon Steele: 22:55

Yes.

Curtis Chang: 22:55

We're not all thinking in exactly the same way. And the safety that we have is not that we all think the same way out of what. The safety is that we have this common how under Jesus.

Jon Steele: 23:07

Yeah. And that I mean, it also just makes me think of the people that Jesus led his disciples to go spend time with. The, you know, that they sat down and ate with tax collectors and sinners who, would have would have, probably resulted in some spicy conversations, I imagine. But because Jesus was so focused on the how and not the what, and that that was what he was training his disciples into, that it made that they could they could spend time in those places and see life transformation happen, and to develop points of commonality with people.

Jon Steele: 23:42

And, yeah, that he that he led the way in that.

Curtis Chang: 23:45

No. I think that's exactly right. And so, you know, we're just following the ancient footsteps of Jesus, as we as we do this. And so and that's that never gets old. It never it never gets old, and it's always relevant.

Curtis Chang: 23:59

Right? So whatever stage of life you're in, whether you're first year out of college or you've been like me thirty years out of college, that's the path we take.

Jon Steele: 24:09

Yes. And something that strikes me as we're talking here, Curtis, is that this it does feel like this leans into relationship development, not just being able to have a friendly conversation with somebody hat that maybe you see differently on or to be able to, like we we can agree we can disagree in a healthy way, which is, you know, that's one of the things actually one of the aims of this series that we've been doing is how can I navigate conflict in a healthy way? But that this actually takes it to another level of not just being able to navigate a difficult conversation, but to be able to preserve and build deeper relationship with someone.

Curtis Chang: 24:50

Yeah. No. That's right. And this is where, you know, discipleship is always takes place in the context of relationship to Jesus, of course, first and foremost, but relationship with other disciples. And, you know, I think that is the key challenge.

Curtis Chang: 25:08

I'm sure you've covered this in your other podcast for that transition, after your four years of InterVarsity is because that was a prepackaged set of relationships, that was sort of, you know, the fellowship existed. Yeah. And then, you know, before you, most likely. Right? And it was the context for you to find those relationships, and it sustains you, and it has the norms and the structure and the context to be together for years.

Curtis Chang: 25:33

And that's the big challenge is then after you graduate, how do you find yourself when you've got to find that, usually in a form that is less prepackaged.

Jon Steele: 25:43

Yes.

Jon Steele: 25:44

Yes. Absolutely. I mean, because the again, this isn't just about how do we do this with people that okay, we are on completely opposite ends of the spectrum. It's like, no,

Jon Steele: 25:53

you and your best friends spend enough time together, and you're going to find that you disagree on some pretty important things. And people who are your future best friends, in order to reach that place, you're going to have to be able to navigate places of disagreement and places of, I don't know how I'm supposed to feel about the way that you that that you think this way about this. And I actually, I'm not sure that I know how to feel about what I think about this topic either. The number of times that I even feel conflict and confusion within myself of the position that I hold, which again brings us back to hope and humility, as followers of Jesus.

Curtis Chang: 26:31

That's right.

Jon Steele: 26:32

Curtis, as you think about alumni who are in that firsy year of life after graduation, I mean, are there some practical tips? I want us to to spend a little more time in just a minute here talking about The After Party more specifically and how people can engage with that and some of the hopes that you have as people do step into that. But are there some are there some, like, tangible handholds that you would offer to alumni in this first year of life after graduation as they're navigating so many new relationships, as to what it looks like to follow as a disciple of Jesus as you step into places of potential conflict with people.

Curtis Chang: 27:11

Yeah. Well, it is related actually the way we designed The After Party. So we design The After Party of the core course curriculum to be in small group settings. It's designed for small groups to go through together and especially small groups in a local church setting because that's sort of where most small groups exist once you get out of, you know, InterVarsity and so forth. And so, in some ways, the my answer to what, you know, a graduate of InterVarsity should be looking for is matched up with how we design The After Party.

Curtis Chang: 27:44

It's like, yeah, you're going to need community. You're going to need disciples. You want to be with people who also aren't going exactly the way you do. And so that is what the local church provides. And what it often feel like it lacks relative to InterVarsity in terms of maybe it's just you know, it's not as structured.

Curtis Chang: 28:05

It doesn't have people who know scripture as well, and, its community is not quite as tight, as it was in InterVarsity. What it lacks in that, it has hopefully in greater diversity. Right? Because it will have people not who are all students at one college of the same age, born in the same time, and shaped by all the same things.

Jon Steele: 28:31

Right.

Curtis Chang: 28:32

You know? Exactly. If it's at all unless it's a very weird local church, it has built in multigenerational, hopefully economic, hopefully some racial and ethnic diversity built into it. So, like, I would say that's the opportunity rather than sort of just pick apart the church, which is so easy to do, for ways it's not like InterVarsity or in the best parts of InterVarsity. Lean into and maybe even deliberately look for a church that's going to be what give you what's better than InterVarsity, what InterVarsity couldn't give you, never could give you, which is, I think, especially that age, occupational, life background diversity.

Curtis Chang: 29:16

That really could be this next phase of your discipleship. So for the graduates, I would just say, yeah. Like, you've gotta drop the you've got to sort of let go of the nostalgia sort of lens, because you're in a different you're you're moving forward. You're you're moving in a different pace of your life, and look for the gifts, the distinctive gifts of the local church versus its distinctive, you know, sort of lacks.

Jon Steele: 29:41

So Curtis, if people would like to to step in more fully to The After Party, can you just help us help us get a feel for where can we find this? What does it look like to navigate through the process? Yeah. How can we do this?

Curtis Chang: 29:56

So, go to after-party.org after-party.org and you've we have, like, a product lineup, so to speak, of how you can engage with it. So one is if you are in a small group of some sort, and ideally in your church that meets in person, but just any small group, really. If you're getting together on a weekly Zoom with your old InterVarsity buddies, like, this could be something that you guys do for 6 weeks on Zoom together, for instance. Right? It's a ready made course, video based, interactive.

Curtis Chang: 30:29

You know, somebody from InterVarsity will feel right at home in the design of this course. Right? And it's plug and play, no prep, no training required. Anybody could lead this. Anybody who's been through InterVarsity could lead their own after party small group.

Curtis Chang: 30:43

Right? It's all plug and play, ready for successions. And so you could do the video course, or you can get the book. You can do it as a book club. If you're part of a book club, do it as a book club.

Curtis Chang: 30:55

Do read it with your friends. Or if you're just alone and that's all you've got right now, you can read the book and go through this material by yourself. One more thing that The After Party is that we're we just released is The After Party is also a worship album. It's called the songs for The After Party that we co-created with the Porter's Gate, which is a collaborative of Christian musicians.

Jon Steele: 31:18

Phenomenal.

Curtis Chang: 31:19

And it's called songs for The After Party, and it's songs, especially worship songs, that call us to to discipleship, especially in our political lives, our political identities along the lines of being a disciple. What does it mean to, of hope and humility? Like, what does it mean to follow Jesus in this political moment? And that's what these songs are designed to do.

Curtis Chang: 31:43

They're they're awesome. I'm so excited about them. The first one, Kingdom of Jesus by John Guerra and Sandra McCracken, hit number 4 on the Spotify charts in their category. And so yeah.

Curtis Chang: 31:55

So if you go to after-party.org, you can get, get info on how to download the songs on your preferred streaming platform and yeah.

Jon Steele: 32:04

That's awesome. And Curtis, I know that we could just say, you know, see the previous 20 minutes for an answer to this question. But if you could just give us, like, a final statement, of like, and this is my hope for you as a result of engaging with this content. Like, this is where we hope that you land as a result of of spending time in this course with your small group or reading this book and worshiping through this music. Like, what is your hope for people as they land through this con- through this content?

Curtis Chang: 32:32

Yeah. Our desire for people is that they would come to have a way of doing politics, making sense of political lives, of having a political identity that is not giving their first and foremost allegiance to Republican or Democrat, Harris or Trump, right? Not that those things aren't important to figure out, but that that is not their first and foremost commitment and identity, that their first and foremost commitment and identity and how they're gonna relate to others is as a disciple of Jesus. And that means then being committed, especially to the how of politics. That is a how of hope and humility versus a certainty on the what of a particular party, candidate, position and so forth.

Curtis Chang: 33:23

So that's what we're that's the big shift, that we're trying to get people to make is to put their identity as a disciple of Jesus first and foremost over their partisan identity.

Jon Steele: 33:35

Curtis, I'm really grateful for the work that you and others have done around this topic, and I'm grateful again for your investment of time, investment in our alumni of stepping in and and sharing these things, helping us get a feel just a taste for some of this content and some of the things that we could learn through The After Party. And I'm extraordinarily grateful for you helping us. This is a timely moment to be able to to have this conversation in particular. And so I'm just really grateful for you, for joining us and and helping us walk through it a little bit.

Curtis Chang: 34:06

You bet, Jon. It's been great to be with you.

Jon Steele: 34:10

Alumni, it's been a great, albeit challenging journey through this series with you, and Curtis's words have been such a great way to wrap things up together. All of this begins and ends with Jesus. There are so many issues today that we can easily find ourselves up in arms about, so many things that can multiply enemies, and it's so easy to feel hopeless about that and to respond in any number of unhealthy, unhelpful ways. But there is hope. Hope that can be found by recentering on Jesus as the ultimate teacher.

Jon Steele: 34:41

And although he might not speak directly to every topic we have concerns about, he absolutely speaks to the right and best way to interact with others no matter the topic. If we are centered on Jesus first, if we make him the lens through which we view every other topic, position, and person, we will be able to hold on to hope, lean in with humility, love our enemies, and see that the person on the other side of conflict is a fellow image bearer of God. It'll be hard and we will mess it up, guaranteed. But Jesus is ready, willing, and able to lean in with us and to do the internal work that's required for us to be able to navigate conflict in a way that looks more and more like the way he would do it. I hope the conversations from the series have felt like useful tools that you can carry with you as you journey with Jesus through conflict.

Jon Steele: 35:34

Curtis, thanks so much for joining us and for helping us wrap up our series well. Alumni, you can find a list of resources from Curtis in the show notes including ways to engage with The After Party. Then be sure to come back next week for a short break from any specific series. We're gonna do a revisit of a favorite conversation from the past as we hear from former IV staff Paul Tokanaga about some best practices for making the most of your 20s So much wisdom from that guy. Do not miss it. Thanks for tuning in, and I'll see you in the after alumni.

Jon Steele: 36:06

Hey. Thanks so much for joining us today, alumni. If there was anything that you learned, really enjoyed, or that encouraged you from today's episode, would you send us a DM or tag us in a story? We'd love to hear about it. You can find us at After IV pod on Instagram and Facebook. And if you haven't already, take just a second to unlock your phone and subscribe to the podcast.

Jon Steele: 36:28

If your platform lets you, leave us a rating and a review. And if you like what we're doing here, share us with your InterVarsity or other post graduation friends. Thanks again for listening, and I will see you in the after alumni.