Hey, InterVarsity alumni. This is After IV, your podcast for navigating life after graduation. This is both an exciting and potentially tricky transition that you're making, and you might feel a little unsure about the coming weeks months. We're here to provide you with expert advice, practical skills, and plenty of encouragement as you learn how to keep saying yes to Jesus in your new context. This is After IV, and this podcast is for you, alumni.

What's up, alumni? Welcome to After IV, your podcast for navigating life after graduation. I'm your host and guide, Jon Steele. Hey. We're gonna dive right into the conversation here.

This is Brent sharing more about how it was possible for him to respond to enemies and threats of death the way that he did in our last episode. So if you haven't listened to it yet, make sure you pause right now and check out episode 136 first. That's gonna make everything we talk about here make way more sense as our guest, Brent, shares the actual story of responding to death threats with love and forgiveness. Second thing, once again, I want to remind you all that there is some strong difficult language in these episodes. If you didn't catch it, go back to my intro in the first part of Brent's story, the previous episode, where I explain more about why that's included.

And if you or someone you know is struggling with thoughts of suicide or self harm, please call or text the number 988 for the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. You can also find more information in the show notes. Alright. Let's jump back into the story. Here's Brent, and this one's for you, alumni.

So yeah. I mean, it I say some of this background because the moment in question, it's I mean, you know this. It's following Jesus. There are these moments that people see, and they're really maybe sort of impactful. But for you, it's the thing that nobody else cared about.

It's almost like in football. Like, some of the hits, yeah, I played football. Some of the hits that you take that look really crazy don't hurt that much.

Then the hits that seem very normal, it's like, oh my gosh. Like, I wanted to get me out of this game right now. You know? And, I feel that way with this encounter. It took me I mean, there's no exaggeration that I must have spent over 200 hours praying to forgive my my ex.

I mean. Day after day after day after day. I mean, you know, like, I either way, it's not worth going into all the details, but the difficulty of forgiving her and the nature of that and the depth of that forgiveness. Right? Not just saying I will let I have been wrong, and I'll allow that, the punishment for that to be put to to be put into the hands of someone else.

Right? I will trust God that he'll repay. Right? Like, then this is he will pay. He'll do whatever needs to be done.

The God of all creation will do what is right. Yeah. He'll do it. Not just that, but moving from that sort of, obedient forgiveness to the love and forgiveness that says, you know, God, would she would she come to prosper? Would you give her the desires of her heart?

Would you heal the things in her that, you know, that produced some of the the way that she treated me? Would you have mercy on her? I mean, that was, there was no camera there. You know, like, Superman wasn't there for that. And, obviously, I didn't know what was coming. But as you said, like, you look back and and God was, was preparing for that moment. So and I yeah. I ended up taking that to heart that there are small, quote, unquote, small things that mostly nobody ever cares about that will never get on TV, that nobody may ever see, and they're probably the things that matter most.

That is such a fascinating perspective that this sort of secret moment, secret, moments, this quiet moment that that's what took 100 of hours of prayer for, like, Lord, help me to forgive and and move and not just beyond sort of, all things equal here, like, abundance towards this person, that was the forgiveness of your enemies that was the was more difficult than this very overt dangerous hateful. But I mean but this had been happening over a long a longer period of time. Like, it makes me wonder was this sort of the was this the, was this the he stone that the Lord was sharpening and shaping you on in preparation for what would be this public moment that was not even I mean, I want to be careful how I say this one because I play no role in this story. I have no personal insight into your experience other than what you've shared with me. So if I'm completely wrong, just punch me through the screen, and and we'll move on. But,

Like, was this a moment was this a moment that God was like, I've given you the situation that was for you and for your transformation. The situation that's happening now with these guys is for my glory, is for the world around you to see that this is what a faithful follower of Jesus does. He forgives his enemies because it's the example that's been given to him.

Yeah. I certainly feel that way. I certainly feel that way. I mean, well, that and even that moment was a stepping stone for other moments because in, it was easy. There was no lag time between the hurt and pain of the moment to I have to figure out how to forgive them.

Right? So at that point, it wasn't like, am I going to do this? It was like, okay. I've got to figure out how because I know the what. I need to forgive.

I just don't know quite how yet. And the year prior had been working on that obedience to the what. Right? Because my own life had taught me when I assume that I know what's best. The fruit of that way of living is you end up trying to kill yourself, in the morning before everyone else wakes up.

So it's like, clearly, you're not very good at this. So trust someone else. So the previous year and all the angst and the forgiving myself for my abuse and giving forgiving my ex for the things that she'd done to me and all these other people. Right? That year had been learning.

How do I cling to the hope of Jesus in the middle of I don't understand why I have to do this or why this is good for me. So by the moment, it's I'm skipping past that part to the how. But even that and so there's pain, but it was mostly the pain of insecurity as a man saying to other men the weakness that you might feel, like the pride that comes up of, like, I gotta fight. I gotta fight. These men are treating me like I'm disposable.

Like, they're they're looking down on me. So just for my own pride, I you know, it's time. Like, okay. If I die, I die. But at least, you know, at least I'll have pride to keep me warm.

You know? So it was the the the emasculation. And there were things that they said to me, during that time that I have never repeated publicly. But, I would say we're as close were as as close to the deepest insecurities and pains of my life that they must have been whispered into their ears by Satan himself.

You know? It's like, so there were things like that I had to figure out how do I forgive and move up and let go of, like, what does it mean to be a man, honestly? What does it mean to be a man in Christ, and the weakness? And how do you survive in a world where, where being weak is a liability head and a vulnerability and, like, you know.

So it was a different sort of thing. But later yeah, but it even that was practice because the next year, I lived with a Neo Nazi for 13 months. I have many more stories.

It's like, God, it's like he's like, ha, ha, ha, ha and then so that was hard. That's when I really learned I thought by the time I lived with that Neo Nazi for about 13 months, I was like, I've got this figured out. Yeah. Okay. I can forgive anybody.

God's like, bet. And then there are more stories after that. If you can believe it. So, yes, the degree to which you said, man, God had been preparing you. I was at a country concert a couple months ago where, I got assaulted by some of my guys who threw a beer can at me, and it's humiliating.

Imagine beer all over you and in public, in front of your wife, and, yeah, there's a lot of stuff, right, that I feel like my life has been marked by trying to learn, trying to figure out this forgiveness thing. So that, yeah, that moment that was on CNN. There there are more CNN worthy moments that were not on CNN as you can hear, but God was using it.

And, yeah, teaching me how to be, yeah, well, I'll finish this with this. I guess, I would say that if we live in a world that is, if we live in a world that isn't safe, and it's especially isn't safe to forgive, because, you're left with enemies who who now see you as, you know, you're just bait. You're meat now, you know, almost. Right? And the dead, one, you can kill all the enemies in the world.

Jesus could've done that. He doesn't do that. You need another mechanism for reducing enemies. And I would say what I've learned over the last, you know, decade in particular is mercy is the weapon that God uses to kill his enemies.

It is the thing. It is the way by which all the enemies in the world can die, and God can also accomplish his purposes of loving everyone, even those who are undeserving of it. And it becomes very difficult to participate in the life of Christ without participating in the life of Christ. You know? So which sucks, which is why you shouldn't read your Bible or pray, honestly.

Because then you might have to do something about it. But, yeah. And I've just learned, like, there's another way to become safe. Right? I wouldn't say becoming unoffendable in this sort of way that devalues human experience and the human emotions, which are good and holy and, you know, it's not like you become a robot.

But I feel like that moment that got on CNN was just the beginning of many, many more moments by which God has been teaching me. You know? How do you have, how do you have peace? Well, if you have peace with everyone, even the people who are who you're not at peace with, like, you can now peace goes with you. Right?

Now you don't have to wait for the environment to produce it of its own. It's like, no. It's almost that that Luke 10 when he sent out and he says, hey. Let let your peace when you go to these places, let your peace the peace that's with you rest on their home. Right?

So and, apparently, believers are the people who carry peace with them into a world that is not peaceful. But it's costly, and it sucks. I mean, obviously, I'm not talking about all the crying. There's a lot of crying. Girl, but I have to do this.

You suck. You know, do you really care about me?

You know, it's like I'm skipping over all that part and sort all that stuff. You know? . But, yeah.

Gosh. I mean, I want to ask the question, has God given you any sense of why? Like, why you? Why isn't why are these the situations? And I mean, I and so I my knee jerk reaction is to say, I wonder if it's because you keep saying yes.

Like, is it because you, is it because you keep you keep being obedient. And so he's like, alright, then I'm gonna keep slaying my enemies and, like, through mercy and and forgiveness. But but that's that's my that's my thought. What do you have a sense of why?

I mean, I think probably some of it is a grace. Right? We're the longer I follow Jesus, the more clear it becomes to me that I had very little I can account for very little of why I am the way that I am. It's the grace of God. I mean, you just become like, oh, like, things could have so easily been different.

And the reality is, like, there is a dance there. Right? There's my responsibility as I try to respond to Jesus, and then there's the way that he's made me and the plans that he's, you know, prepared and knows that. You know, it's some of it is a mystery. But, yes, I think partly because of my obsessive personality, which probably comes through, which was such I mean, I used to my students used to ask him, like, hey.

You know, like, Brent, you were you're gonna commit suicide, and Jesus had this moment for you. He doesn't do that for everybody. Do you know why? And I'm like, well, first, no. I don't know why. I don't know why. Second, I have a guess. And it's like, you have to put yourself into the mindset of a person who's so pathological. I mean, this is not how there's nothing healthy about this.

God has redeemed it. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's been it's been dope because Jesus is incredible. But a certain person so pathological, who's like, well, if atheism is true, then nothing matters. So time to die.

You know, it's like, I'm not the only sort of person with that personality type, but that is closer to a mental illness than it is a healthy response. You know what I'm saying? That's a trauma response. And so Jesus is the one who came and twisted, said, okay, this is not good. This isn't great, but I can work with this. You know? So I think that's part of it, but yes, there is a yes.

There's a, there's a yes. That part of it, I think is I grew up, I grew up in a black Christian household. I did not have conversations with my parents. There were no conversations.

There was yes, ma'am. There was yes, sir. Nobody was asking about my opinion. You know what I'm saying? I grew up in a certain way.

So for God to be my, I remember, being in my room alone and, praying, maybe 4 or 5 months saved. And I called God, Dad, on accident because my dad was just such a man of intent. You know? My dad modeled God so well to me that by the time I met God for myself, it felt more like a reintroduction, is the highest compliment I could give. But so, you know, but I came to see God as my father.

So it just became like, well, you I don't talk back to my own dad. Why would I talk back to you know? So there there are a couple of things that kept me in the fight long enough to see the goodness on the other side. So if you spend less time saying, I don't know if I'm gonna do this, and more time saying I'm gonna do it, I just don't know how.

Then which is the yes part. It keeps you in the fight long enough to see the goodness of the Lord, you know, on the other side. And which then becomes cyclical because when you'd say yes to some of these things, even though it sucks, at the end, Jesus is glorified, and then you're glorified in it too. I mean, it's like, there's all these things that come out of it and you see, oh, that was worth it. It was that was great, actually.

In fact, that's what I was made for. And it makes the next time a little less scary, not much, like 1%.

But by the time you say yes a 100 times, you know, you're like, I know how this is going to end. So at the country concert, which was the hardest thing I've ever been through, which some other time, you know, email me if you want to know about, you know, it was, it was the hard, I, it was the first time I ever went to counseling. Like I was like, I need to see a therapist. I was so full of rage. That was, you know, I'm almost 30 at that point.

I thought I was far beyond a lot of the stuff, and I wasn't. But either way, it took me a a while to forgive these people and to wrestle with my own response and and the call of Christ, which I felt like, God, you don't even care about me. Like, bro, you know, following you is gonna ruin my life. You know? It's like I felt that again.

But and so there's weeping and matching of teeth for a couple of weeks, but I can stay there because God has proven himself so many times. But it's almost like the logic overrides itself. It's kinda like, oh, it's like, Jesus. Every single time, you prove yourself to be good over this.

So there's a high chance you're gonna be good over this too if I just stay around long enough to figure it out. So Yeah. Obedience makes routine obedience makes things easier.

I will say. Because it becomes a routine. Now you're like, oh, I guess I gotta do it.

And then you get the joy, and then it just is the sower and the reaper are glad together because now you're happy. You're like, oh my gosh. God, that was way better than my plan. I was gonna go shoot then.

That wasn't a good idea.

It's a way better than my plan. Yeah.

So Brent, you may already be leaning in this direction with some of the things that you just shared. But thinking about our audience, thinking about young alumni who have just graduated or who are looking at graduation in the near future who will experience conflict. Some of them will experience conflict to the degree that you have experienced. Like, they will experience that level of, like, I am standing toe to toe with my enemy right now. And some of them, it will be conflict, like, I disagree with the way that this person is leading small group at by like, church Bible study and so I need to figure out how to engage them well with this.

Like it's gonna be across the board depending on the listener and the time of their life. What kind of advice would you give to someone who is stepping knowingly but somewhat blindly into a life that will be full of conflict moving forward?

Yeah. One of the casualties of telling stories on a podcast like this is that, partly because of the personal nature of some of these, I can't share the stories I wish I could share about conflict within my own family, conflict with it. You know? The things that, the things that are not so book worthy, TV worthy, or whatever. Like, you know, living with a Neo Nazi, that's, you know, that's an intro.

That's a plot line. You know? But forgiving like, I won't even say. But there was some conflict in my family that was way harder than that. So I just I wanna affirm, like, some of these stories seem so fantastical, but they're just the public representations of what every believer I think has to do in their own heart with their in laws, with their sister, with their friend. So I think right there's no competition there. My encouragement would be, almost this sounds like not encouragement, but I promise that it is.

We're good. My encouragement would be to make a decision far before the conflict comes about what you're going to do and the sort of person that you're going to be. And to do it ahead of time long enough so that you can figure out if you really wanna follow Jesus, which sounds like I'm telling you not to follow Jesus, but I kind of am.

You know? It would be so much better if you just say, look, Jesus, that part of my life is off limits instead of playing the game of, like, oh god. You know, maybe, because God is gracious. Right? He'll send the Holy Spirit to convict you and soften your heart or I mean, Jesus says, I think it's in John.

He's talking to the Pharisees and he's like, if you, essentially you could admit that you're blind, then I would help you to see. But since you can't admit that you're blind, like, you're just gonna remain blind. And there's an element of that here when it comes to conflict. Some of us and I know it because I saw it myself where it's well, yeah. I signed on the dotted line.

I'm a Christian, so I guess I have to give lip service to this loving enemies thing. But when push comes to shove, we're just not going to. It's not a, God help me. How? It's like, no.

What are you talking about? This is off limits. And I think it would just honestly, it'd be better to just say, God, this is off limits. Do what you need to do in my life so that it's not off limits, but I'm not gonna play around. Because then now you're not playing around with yourself.

That's good. It's good to know the truth. And you're not, putting yourself in a position where you're, one, making a mockery out of Christ in such a way that we live in a nation that's, some people would say presumably Christian, at least in orientation, but is lacking such a witness that, a kid can forgive his enemies and it's newsworthy. But I think that's because Wow. Christians have given lip service to the idea of what it means to forgive their enemies.

It's more complicated than that, but most people are sitting on the sidelines talking about how complicated it is. And so you know what I'm saying? So it's like, that's not how many people said, hey, this isn't fair to you, and this is revictimization and blah blah blah blah blah. And I get they're trying to love me well.

But to love someone is to seek their highest good. When I'm praying for my ex, would if I don't get to the part where I begin to earnestly and with integrity seek her highest good, I haven't truly forgiven her. Right? So to let someone is to seek their highest good.

It's what Jesus does for us. It's why he's willing to, you know, put us through things because he has a higher good in mind that we can't quite see. And so my encouragement to anyone who's, dumb enough to be listening to this, I suppose, would be to make seriously, to I'd say have it. Go alone in your room. Have a knock down fight with the Holy Spirit about what you will and will not let him do in your life.

And come out with some honesty. Come out with some honesty. And then take that to people you trust in faith, in your community, pastors, friends, parents, and, and take that in in prayer before the Lord to see if, you know, it's something that you can work through. Because, to follow Jesus is to follow Jesus. There's no way in being obedient to Jesus that you, won't become more like him.

And Jesus' life kind of sucked. So he didn't have sex. You know, that sucks. He died of [???]. That's a long list of things.

Like, he was poor. That sucks. You know? And we're looking to pick which ones which elements of his life we're carried up into, but that's part of it.

And so that would be the, encouragement. And the actual encouraging part of that encouragement is if you do, you will be living the greatest life you could possibly live. Which is something I can say with integrity that in those moments, I didn't want to do it and in those, you know, all the stuff that nobody ever gets to see and they have to figure out, you know, if I'm just lying or being bombastic or, you know, zattering or whatever. Only God knows.

Only God knows the prayers I prayed when no one's around. But also only God knows the joy, the actual joy is the reason I'm like, I have the best job in the world. It's like astounding to me. I woke up this morning, and literally, I was like reminded, like, this is my job.

Oh my gosh. You know? And, but I think it's because even though I fail, I'm disobedient far more, you know, than I am. I have to have a conversation with my mom that I don't want to have.

So it's now it's on the podcast, so I have to have it. So next time you can ask, oh my gosh. Like, you know, and I've been disobedient about it for, like, 2 weeks. I just don't wanna have it. Oh my gosh.

But the joy, oh my gosh, the joy that comes from living the life that God has asked us to live. It's like, it's without compare. So yeah. Go for it, do dumb stuff.

In summary, that's my TED talk.

That has to be some of the, maybe the the boldest, gutsiest, maybe some kind of advice that has been given on this podcast that nobody nobody yet in the number of years that this has been on the air has said go in your room by yourself and have a knockdown, drag out fight with the Holy Spirit. That's my advice.

It'll help.

It will. Brent, thank you so much. I mean, I know that this is a story that you have told. I know it's a story as you said, it's a story that's followed you one year after another. So I won't, I mean, I will thank you for being vulnerable and sharing. But I know that that's something that you're practiced in.

But I will also say thanks for telling it again because it's a story you've told a number of times. And I appreciate you being willing to to step into our timeline on this podcast and the series that we're in the middle of and giving a very real life example of here's a crazy but all too common situation, that was responded to with love and forgiveness. And what does it look like for us to develop this sort of mindset as we anticipate conflict, as we anticipate engaging our enemies in whatever format that that holds for us in the coming weeks months years of our lives? So thanks for stepping in with us and for and for telling your story again, for our benefit, for our good.

I appreciate it very much.

If it's okay?

Yes.

You can edit edit this out or whatever. I just got convicted.

Okay. Do it.

Whatever. It is a, there's a pastoral word.

Please.

This would be the other version of the encouragement, and you could, give this because I just yeah. I wanna be able to go to sleep tonight. Anyways.

Okay. That's great.

So the other version of the pastoral word is, that there are people maybe even who are listening now, for whom anger and bitterness and resentment is a prison that you live that you've lived in. It's a tool that the enemy has used against you to keep you in bondage. And, everyone else in your life knows it. Right? There are people who avoid certain conversations with you because they know that there are places that they can't go.

There's harshness and a lack of compassion that you exhibit in certain areas. Sometimes it surprises you. Like, dang, man. Why do I feel that way? And so, like, unforgiveness is is both a friend, but it's a friend of the worst, sort because it's a friend that's keeping you in bondage.

It's keeping you safe from the world, but it's also keeping you safe from Jesus. And so the encouragement for the people who are like that, who would say, why would I ever do something as dumb as love my enemies even though it might cost me something, is because by loving your enemies, you'll become someone who's finally free, which is what you're trying to do in the not loving your enemies. It's like, I'm not gonna forgive. I'm not gonna step into this because that looks painful. That looks like it's gonna, you know, ruin my life, turn it worse in some way.

But, actually, you know, there's a year of Jubilee. There's a freedom for you on the other side. And it would be a good thing to be free.

Yes. Wow. Brent, that is a good word. That's a thank you, thanks for circling us back for for saying that. I think that I'm confident that there are people who are in need of hearing those words today, and I'm grateful for you sharing.

Man, Brent, thank you once again for for being here, and for leaning in with us today. I really appreciate it.

Yeah, man. We gotta grab coffee or something next conference that we're at.

Absolutely.

It will be fun.

I'm totally down. Let's make it happen, man. Thank you.

Okay. Before I give any kind of recap or final thoughts, I wanted to mention that there was at least one well meaning but foolish question that I asked Brent. I never actually finished the question because I'm a perpetual self interrupter. But essentially I asked why do you think God keeps leading you into these circumstances? Now I don't wanna remove from the equation the obvious reality that the spirit of the enemy loving God is powerfully at work in all of these stories and snapshots that Brent has been sharing.

But I also want to acknowledge that what my well intentioned question failed to take into account is that Brent also continues to find himself in these situations for something he has no control over. The color of his skin and the way that other people, typically people who look like me, respond to that reality because of the sin and the injustice that surrounds him on a daily basis. So I recognize that that was a short sighted question on my part. Thank you, Brent, for showing me an enormous amount of grace as you responded to that, and however many other well meaning but potentially ignorant questions I might have asked. All that in mind, I think that once again, we're left in the tension of being called into something that on our own, we are totally unequipped to do.

Brent was able to respond in loving kindness to his enemies, not because it was natural or easy, but because he trained literally for hundreds of hours with Jesus, and with those who were discipling him in what it means to love and pray for and forgive those who hate you. So that when it came time, this was second nature. Not necessarily easy, but a learned response nonetheless. Brent was simply doing what was required by his Savior who had done the same thing for him first. The Savior who chooses mercy as the weapon with which he kills his enemies.

Man, may we all follow the example set by Jesus and beautifully lived out by Brent. Brent, once again, thank you so much for joining us, and thank you for sharing this story. If you all would like to hear a story that runs parallel to Brent's, jump over to our other podcast InterVarsity World Changers and listen to Brent's brother Kyle Campbell as he talks about his own transformation and the way it impacted his ability to love the people who hated him and share the gospel in a very risky corporate setting. Another super cool story, and it will also be painfully clear that these two guys are twin brothers. It's crazy.

I'll put a link in the show notes. Then be sure to come back next week for my conversation with professor Seth Freeman. Professor Freeman has a framework for skillfully navigating challenging hot button issues with people who we even vehemently disagree with. And if used correctly, we even have the chance to develop a deeper respect and a better understanding of the person on the other side of the issue. It's called paraphrase, praise, probe.

We talked about it last year, but it's a conversation worth revisiting for this series. Alright. Until then, thanks for tuning in, and I will see you in the after alumni.

Hey. Thanks so much for joining us today, alumni. If there was anything that you learned, really enjoyed, or that encouraged you from today's episode, would you send us a DM or tag us in a story? We'd love to hear about it. You can find us at After IV pod on Instagram and Facebook.

And if you haven't already, take just a second to unlock your phone and subscribe to the podcast. If your platform lets you, leave us a rating and a review. And if you like what we're doing here, share us with your InterVarsity or other post graduation friends. Thanks again for listening, and I will see you in the after, alumni.