After IV
BONUS: Theology &... Mystery, Doctrine, Humility

Podcast Intro – (Upbeat acoustic guitar music)

Jon Steele  0:09  
Hey everyone. I'm Jon Steele. And this is After IV: a podcast for InterVarsity alumni. Life after college is hard. And even a great experience with your InterVarsity chapter doesn't shield you from the challenges of transition. As we hear stories from real alumni learning how to make it in their post-InterVarsity reality, my hope is that this podcast will offer some encouragement, a few laughs and even some hope for the future. This is After IV, and these are your stories.

Interview

Jon Steele
Yeah, I'm starting, I'm starting to feel an interesting tension, there's probably a number of tensions that I should feel but the one that standing out to me here is the thought of, we we we serve. And we know and we love a God who is both knowable and mysterious. And we'll always be that, at least in this in this part of life, that we are this part of eternity that we are existing in right now, like knowable, and mysterious will exist. And so, to me, that, that adds an interesting element to, to this pursuit of theology, and, you know, under knowing and engaging, because of the idea of like, I'm trying to better understand, but there's always going to be some mystery in the midst of that, and that feels like sort of a tense place to stand. 

Dr. Emily Hill  1:29  
Yeah, I think that gets to how theology might differ, or what a broader definition of theology means in relation to some of some of those ideas that Jeff mentioned, theology is not Yeah, more is more than and and I think there's, there's, it's good to try to arrive at, at some answers. And, you know, I don't we don't want to say that answers to certain questions don't matter. But in pursuing the diversity of ideas, and relationships between those ideas, for me, I've experienced as it's very grounding, so then I then encounter a big question, or, you know, for our students and staff who are deconstructing or hearing all these issues in the news and trying to figure out how does this relate to my faith, I then have a sense of the one way I was taught about God growing up is good, but it's not the only way. So what are other ways that people have thought about God experienced God around the world in history? And that gives me a lot more confidence that there are answers out there. And it's fun and exciting for me to try to look into them. But also, I can be free that I actually don't need to find answers to every question. Because I exist in this community. That that holds me up. And that also exposes me to a lot of different ideas. So I'm looking for Yeah, trying to live in that tension is really important. I think the the diversity of our community in time and space is really helpful for that.

Jon Steele  3:06  
Yes. Which speaks to the which speaks to diversifying our understanding of our and others traditions, like one of those important key elements.

Dr. Jeff Liou  3:15  
You know, and frankly, if if we don't do that ourselves, God will do it for us. Because I mean, one of the very popular kind of often used passages for your, for these InterVarsity alums, as you're listening, you probably your staff probably took you through a passage in Acts where Peter goes and meets the Centurion. And, you know, Peter was unwilling to diversify his tradition, awareness. He was aware of just one thing, and he couldn't fathom how it could possibly be that he should get up, kill and eat Peter, you know, God rate lowers that sheet to HIMS. Look at all these animals take and eat. And he says, I have never, I have never. But God had to intervene and open his eyes to what what was what was possible?

Jon Steele  4:03  
Yes, yes. One of a particular a particular term that comes to my mind, and we've we've briefly touched on this, but it's the idea of doctrine. Is it helpful to make one last distinction here of like, what is the difference? Because that feels like one that's very, that's used interchangeably, probably theology and doctrine. And and I'm going to assume it should not be. But how does this different differ from doctrine?

Dr. Emily Hill  4:33  
Yeah, so, you know, I mentioned the Trinity would be an example of a doctrinal element that's part of understanding the doctrine of God or or who God is. Other doctrines might be atonement or sin, or, you know, the eschatology the end time. So they're kind of buckets of ideas that we tried to study and understand and the good thing is that those those was tell us some key elements of our faith. So the atonement matters, the Trinity matters. Those things are central to what it means to be a Christian. But the way in which we understand those things can vary significantly in the way in which we try to relate them. So it's important to understand, you know, this is what systematic theology is one kind of idea of theology is, is trying to understand these different doctrines and how they relate. So if I have a particular view of atonement, that shapes my view of sin, and vice versa. So these things are related. You know, historically, systematic theology is maybe seen as trying to create a really tight system of these ideas of these different doctrines. And I don't think that's what we want to do. So that doesn't help us see tradition, across differences or across communities. And I think for me, it's important to recognize that these things are related. But again, getting to that tension between certainty and mystery. Exactly the ways are related exactly the ways we understand the atonement, can vary. So whether if we think about atonement and penal, substitutionary atonement, is that the is that the only way to understand atonement? Or do we think about other things like Christus, Victor, or different ways of understanding the atonement? And we might come to recognize actually, these all have something to say. So it's not about like relativism, then, but recognizing that within scripture, actually, a lot of these aren't present. And so how do we try to hold them together?

Dr. Jeff Liou  6:36  
You know, for me, there's a story there. Students were always asking me, you know, how do I how do I choose the church? In fact, they still do you know, is this a good church to go to? Right, so maybe a friend moves to New area? And the ones that don't ask, you know, a lot of times, they're, they're just mostly looking for, like, does the worship style fit? Is there a place for my kids, you know, stuff like that. But occasionally, somebody will send me the doctrinal basis of a church. And they'll say, like, is this a good church? Like, is, does this look okay to you? And, and that, that's what is meant by doctrine. And what doctrine really does, it describes, it kind of declares, in a very clear way, what this community is committed to. And that's not the same thing as doing theology. So simply declaring what you're committed to doctrinally or dogmatically is not the same thing as how you got there, what experiences and traditions and, you know, thinking processes and approaches, all that kind of stuff is different. So when somebody asks me, is this okay, I mean, typically, it's okay, you know, it's sometimes it can be a little weird, and I'll tell him why. But at the at the moment, we're talking about why now we're doing theology. Right now we're feeling it out. We're asking God, what's God doing there? You know, Is this really okay? Is this where the spirits leading me? And what does this have to say about what they really ultimately believe about the God that we, that we name that we share together, that kind of stuff?

Jon Steele  8:10  
It feels to me like, you know, quote, unquote, doing theology is a way to fairly consistently keep yourself humble in the things that you believe of, like of identity, like having a, it seems like having a fairly, a stable doctrinal structure is important of saying, like, these are the things that we believe, but understanding how we got to it and how it influences the way that we live, and whether or not we can continue shaping our understanding of these elements like that. That's at least in part what what theology does sort of flows in and out of, of our doctrinal stances. Does that seem fair?

Dr. Jeff Liou  8:51  
Super insightful, Jon. And I hope I really hope that's true of me and Emily and Bruce Hansen, are other colleagues in the theological formation department. And the reason why that's true is because when we start asking questions, people don't want to be humbled. Right, Jon? Right. Nobody wants. But when we start asking questions that come out of our training in theology, people freak out, people get so nervous, like, Are you testing me? Are you and the humility stuff really becomes the issue? Pride makes it so that we don't want to answer new questions. We don't want to show our work. We just want to have the commitments that make us comfortable, and we don't want to be challenged. But theology does ask those questions of us so that we can stay in a conversation about God in community. It's it's that breakdown of community that makes us not want to answer those questions again and again with other people or have new questions. So that humility is so important. I don't know that I always do it right. I can feel kind of the blood pressure rising into my neck when somebody asked me a question that I don't want to have to defend or explain myself. Yes, yes, you're right. Jon. Humility is required for this.

Podcast Outro – (Upbeat acoustic guitar music)

Hey, thanks so much for joining us today, Alumni. If there was anything that you learned, really enjoyed, or that encouraged you from today's episode, would you send us a DM or tag us in a story? We'd love to hear about it. You can find us @afterivpod on Instagram and Facebook. And if you haven't already, take just a second to unlock your phone and subscribe to the podcast. If your platform lets you, leave us a rating and a review. And if you like what we're doing here, share us with your InterVarsity or other post-graduation friends. Thanks again for listening. And I will see you in the after, Alumni.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai