After IV
BONUS: Dr. Onorio Chaparro and Discipleship

Musical Interlude

Interview

Jon Steele  0:05  
Well, so then that leads me to my next question, which is, which feels like it's, it's sort of zooms in a little bit more on that second one of that you are being you are being pastored, you are being shepherded. And I think part of that is having a healthy discipleship relationship, which, you know, may be with somebody that's actually on staff with the church, my guess is for many people, it's more likely going to be with somebody, that's somebody that's maybe a little bit older, sort of in the next season of their life that can sort of look back and help you processed through the things you're experiencing now. But can you help us get an idea for what does it look like to have a healthy discipleship relationship? In the midst of this? And yeah, and what what does one look like?

Onorio Chaparro  0:47  
Yeah, no, and this is where again, there's such a diversity in the body of Christ. Certainly, you know, and so often, I don't know, I think InterVarsity alum are, are potentially at an edit advantage than a lot of the peers they're going to come across. So I would simply say to a lot of InterVarsity, alum to the reminder is to whom much is given, much is required. And so the reality of it is, they may also have to discern how God wants them. Because that's part of the discipleship process is ultimately you're in the process, you're not just simply a recipient, you you ultimately become a master over what you share. In, in Christian thinking, you become, you get further mastered by the one who loves you, and to the utmost, as you share. So when you're when you take responsibility for the development of others, you will grow, you're going to need to number one, recognize that your inner life has to match your outer life, your your, your, your, your your confession, your profession have to match your meditation. And so that's going to then further drive you and I think that's one of the things that I think is, regardless of church denomination one of the detriments in our church culture in the United States of America, and I think the Western world for centuries, someone like Alan Hirsch would say, I would argue this, that we've we've created a congregation for the very passive people. And so I think, I think the challenge for most InterVarsity of llum is that they will, they will struggle to find a discipleship process that way they had it in InterVarsity. Sure. So what are the substitutes? What do you do? I think number one is to recognize that God is ultimately the disciple maker, your disciple of Jesus, you're not a disciple of an Oreo, you know, disciple of InterVarsity, a disciple of Jesus. And so Jesus is using these processes and people to, to mature you. So part of it is simply is simply saying, Okay, what peer level associations can I have in this congregation that allow me a place to start to get to know people, because if you're coming in cold and getting to know people, that's a process and you're gonna go through that process? I forget right now who the author was, I had the book somewhere, but it's but the author talked about the different formations of community where we move from pseudo community where yes, youth, you know, everyone in the church has a brother and a sister. Okay, but then you move into crisis. And crisis is when the brother and a sister that that, you know, that that saw you on on Sunday, you actually see them on Tuesday, you know, and they don't even acknowledge you, or something happens to offend you. And so now you've plunged into crisis, there's some kind of Christ some kind of crisis brought about by conflict. And I think that's the challenge for most of us is that we come into churches projecting on the church of a utopian fantasy that doesn't exist. And so you got to come in. And that's why I said the other parts of your InterVarsity alum and I know it's hard everybody you reach out to it's difficult because everyone's busy, everyone's doing their own thing. And you might be the one to remind everybody a we experienced some stuff and I still need you and whether you want to admit it or not, you still need me we need to come and we need to keep praying together through this life process. And through this life change. We need to be part of things like InterVarsity olam because we're part of something much greater than ourselves. And we don't grow in isolation. We only grow in community but I'm, I need to grow through the process in this community. So you come from pseudo community to crisis and when it comes to self emptying where God is growing you up, okay? This place is not utopia. This produce people are not perfect. That doesn't mean you're supposed to run away or retreat, discern how God wants you to continue to grow in your own authenticity, and to grow as a peacemaker, to grow as a minister of reconciliation and then come to a place where Okay, now we can have authentic community now we can have some some real dialogue. So I think the first point is just don't dismiss peer to peer relationships. The second place is don't dismiss those Sunday classes that look like you already learned this stuff and InterVarsity Yes, you know, unrehearsed is quickly forgotten. And so at the end of the day, okay, yes, maybe your InterVarsity rep. Maybe they taught the book of of Hebrews a lot better than this other person, but you're there to get to know other people in the circle, you're get, you're there to get to know that my wife, when she started attending Christian culture center, there were some robust relationships that she, she, she providentially encountered in those classes that she still has today. And so you know, this is going back to 1997. And so she still has them to that she met them in those Sunday school classes. And that's, that's, that's part of it. And then the other part of it is discerning the process, they have for you to be a volunteer, and you don't have to be a volunteer in those departments forever. You know, that it's not a it's not a it's not marriage. You know, it's, yeah, volunteer, you know. And so, you know, and churches have to grow up, they can't covet people anyway. So, you know, but discern where you can volunteer, and those are just some of the, I think volunteers in churches are the ones who have the, even if the church doesn't have a real process of discipleship, because some church traditions and cultures, discipleship is more organic, it's a reality that they believe that some things are caught, not taught. And so being around them is the way that you will learn. Now, as a process, guy, I don't really like that, say, gray respected that that's the culture and so if God is calling you, you're being led to that kind of a place, then just then begin to learn the culture you are, Christ is incarnate in Christ is flushing out his, his, his life through you. And so part of the flushing out might be you coming in there, and then learning a completely different culture, or this is the way they do it here, and then discerning where and when, and how you can introduce to them the things that you've also learned. And in that exchange, you're being discipled. Because there are some places they're real great, like, you know, like, there's some programs like, you know, purpose driven church, then some churches follow it, you have a one on one for membership, a tool, one for this, a 301 for that a four, one for that. And then you're volunteering, that some places like you know, you know, where put mints church where they have a whole outline on life of discipleship, and that's great. But I would also say that, again, the extended reality of being a disciple, the congregation there is going to play one part. But there are other parts of your life where God is still discipling you and those parts are extremely important.

Jon Steele  7:47  
So one of the first things you said is, is looking for those opportunities for peer to peer relationships. And those that there are multiple places where that becomes this discipleship, opportunity. One, you talk about these sort of Sunday school classes that churches make available, and and remember, like, there are people there, it's not just about the content that you're learning or engaging with, there are people there that you're engaging with, and that's a place to develop relationship. And and even if it does, you know, you gave this example of a Hebrews class that your chapter staff like, oh, they crushed it. I know, all I need to know. It's like, well, that's not that's, I mean, maybe they did crush it, you don't know all that you need to know. But you do know some stuff that maybe other people in that class don't. And you have an opportunity to edify and be a benefit to that group, as they are also edifying and teaching you and you're growing from their experiences. And then you also have, yes, these volunteer experiences. Again, another place to rub shoulders with other people to be discipled in doing the work of serving a congregation together and and even other places of serving outside of a Sunday morning that you may, you know, maybe you're a part of an events team or something like that. And that becomes part of your outreach to the community.

Onorio Chaparro  8:59  
Right, right right now and just to share something personal when I look back on it again, talking out loud. When I came into the Christian cultural center, I again I saw pastor Bernard I knew that okay, this was going to be my pastor, I was gonna listen to him on Sundays, but I knew that I wouldn't be able to get to the guy that was already a large congregation, right. But I knew that I was hungry and thirsting in my heart for mentor. And, and what this is for me personally, but this is a word of encouragement that the end of the day I had the man who led me to the Lord Larry, he was Larry Adler. He was he was at a distance he was in Long Island, and I was now just immersed in all that I was immersed in. And so you know, I had the natural desire to kind of want a mentor close to me. I was fortunate that I had Jason Gabriel at the time as well, who was again significant making a significant impact in my life. He still does and I'm grateful for his friendship and his beloved Sophia and their family and but but I remember hungering and thirsting for a for a mentor and you know, One person at a time at the Christian cultural center, who was an elder minister, and I reached out to them, and they pretty much said, they pretty much said, Nah, I'm not the one keep praying on it. And, and so you know, and I'm just keeping it 100. But what I did was, again, in those peer to peer relationships, where I was at the time still, I got to I got into a group of people that were moving towards certain goals. In the Men's Ministry, we're moving towards certain goals, trying to achieve certain things working alongside of them. And, and God began to mentor me, peer to peer. And I just think that peer to peer mentoring is oftentimes just dismissed. And it really, you know, there was Jesus and then the disciples. And so and the apostles who did he leave, like, they may have been a leader, but they were there was a it was a peer to peer mentoring group that Jesus set up to run the run his vision. So I just wanted to share that someone because sometimes, we don't realize that God is still working in us healing in regards to our father wounds, our mother wounds, and that God Himself is in a place where he wants to keep us from slipping away into into into Miss Miss, wrongly positioning people in places and spaces that he is meant to occupy. And a pastor is not God, a mentor is not God. And they serve you to the degree that God will set it up to be so and then later on, I got introduced to elder battle. And it was a battle through a Sunday school class adopted me as a spiritual son. And so I was very fortunate with that and, and my relation and as I'm saying, at that time in my life, that's that's what I need. But I didn't know what I needed. God did we think we know what we need. We just got to stay committed to Christ and be patient in the process.

Podcast Outro – (Upbeat acoustic guitar music)

Hey, thanks so much for joining us today, Alumni. If there was anything that you learned, really enjoyed, or that encouraged you from today's episode, would you send us a DM or tag us in a story? We'd love to hear about it. You can find us @afterivpod on Instagram and Facebook. And if you haven't already, take just a second to unlock your phone and subscribe to the podcast. If your platform lets you, leave us a rating and a review. And if you like what we're doing here, share us with your InterVarsity or other post-graduation friends. Thanks again for listening. And I will see you in the after, Alumni.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai